New York Poker Players To Protest NYPD Raids

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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Actually, it is my understanding that the charges against the dealers were dropped... could you explain that in your economic theory?


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Last time I spoke with my insider friends, they have not been dropped yet but there is negotiations to do so. The ownership of the PS are cooperating and expect the whole matter to be settled without charges soon. They are good people, and are making sure their former staff are safe.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Yesterday, I heard from my "reliable source" that the charges were dropped against all dealers from both clubs -- but he is a little less reliable now that he has distanced himself from the events of that night... so it may not be finalized.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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Participating in a raked game is illegal! The money will go to the city. Thanks for the generous donation to nyc.

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In New York State, this statement is false. It is not illegal to gamble in New York State from a player's perspective. It is illegal to promote or "profit from" gambling. The definition of "profit from" in the statute specifically excludes players.

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Ah... the idiosyncracies of NY law... indeed almost ALL gambling --raked or not -- is "illegal" in NY. That includes casino gambling, poker and coin-flipping... The New York State Constitution states:

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no lottery or the sale of lottery tickets, pool-selling, book-making, or any other kind of gambling, except [state lotteries and state-run racing tracks], shall hereafter be authorized or allowed within this state

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The NYS Constitution goes on to give the legislature the ability to make laws implementing this... generally, the practice has been to leave the players alone -- and the only thing players can be charged with is loitering for the purposes of gambling (a violation (read: glorified parking ticket), not a crime). It is only a crime to "promote" or "profit from" gambling, but all gambling is "against the law" in NY.

That's why people love lawyers so much... because we can make these nonsensical arguments. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[spadeclub99]

The loitering ticket for the purpose of gambling is of questionable constitutional validity according to this source. Scroll all the way to the bottom.
New York Gambling Laws

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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The loitering ticket for the purpose of gambling is of questionable constitutional validity according to this source. Scroll all the way to the bottom.
New York Gambling Laws

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Yes. I am well aware. It is unclear. But the fact remains that gambling is illegal in New York -- doesn't mean its a crime -- but it is illegal.

[ronniejames]

I 'm the guy who brought the police raids on the two biggest Manhattan poker clubs to the attention of the Libertarian Party. Naturally, I'd be very grateful to any poker players who take the trouble to show up at our little street theater/protest. If you were relieved of your cash, you really owe it to yourself to speak out. Permit me to present the case:

The police keep insisting that playing poker is perfectly legal. Fine. Then why did they take the players' money? If they empty the cash box into a burlap sack and refuse to issue receipts, is it a stretch to call what they're doing an armed robbery?

Several posters are going on and on about "raked games." NYC club operators understand this point very well, and for that reason THEY DO NOT RAKE GAMES. They charge time, as do bridge clubs, chess clubs, backgammon clubs--you get the idea. Let us stop all references to "raked games."

Many municipalities have argued successfully that poker is not gambling, which is defined as playing against the house in a game with a fixed negative expectation for the player. The police admit that they have no idea if New York gaming laws apply to poker.

Soon after the raids, I called the Manhattan D.A.'s office and asked them to scotch an ugly rumor that the police intended to keep the money taken from the players. I was assured the police do not engage in robbery and the players could recover their cash by presenting "vouchers" (presumably from the club operators). I knew better, but thanked the rep of the special crimes unit anyway. Subsequent news stories have police spokespersons claiming that they are looking for links to "organized crime."

I called the Manhattan D.A.'s office a second time. Why, I asked, are individual players losing their money if you're looking for mob ties? I went on to say that if you take eight hundred bucks of my cash, I can help you to determine where that money came from: it came from me, not organized crime.

Here's a fairly obvious point that some you seem to overlook: if I park by a sign that prohibits parking, a cop can write me a ticket. If he turns me upside down and shakes all of my money onto the sidewalk and runs away with it, I've been mugged. The city and the club owners can thrash out in court the issue of who should or shouldn't be permitted to run a poker club. THE POLICE CANNOT HIJACK THE GAMES. Period.

Some you imagine that asking for a receipt could land you in the slammer. And what would you be charged with? If playing poker is legal (and it is), why shouldn't you expect your money to be returned to you? It is a mystery to me that poker players continue to endure these outrages, and more incredibly, seek to justify them.

Anyone interested in joining us may contact me at ronniejames@att.net. We need all the help we can get. Thanks for listening.

[45suited]

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You sound like a retired cop which explains why your knowledge of the law is so innacurate.

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You sound like a pompous ass who has no respect for mostly good people who actually work for a living doing a job that you're not man enough to do. Why do you find it necessary to take a shot at the average cop when they (the average cop) are not even the people making the decision to raid the place? Again, some random beat cop didn't make the decision to make this raid. That decision was made way higher up the chain of command.

So because you disagree with that decision, you insult all police officers, who risk their lives every day they go to work. Very classy.

[ronniejames]

This post raises an important point. Our purpose in protesting the raids is to assert our right to play cards. We want to discourage cop-bashing. The NYPD, for the most part, does an excellent job and compares favorably to the police departments of other major cities. Surely many cops have misgivings about taking money from people who are merely playing a game. We want the pols who authorize these stupid stunts to be held accountable. We do not seek to besmirch the reputations of men and women who risk their lives daily in a dangerous job.

[45suited]

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This post raises an important point. Our purpose in protesting the raids is to assert our right to play cards. We want to discourage cop-bashing. The NYPD, for the most part, does an excellent job and compares favorably to the police departments of other major cities. Surely many cops have misgivings about taking money from people who are merely playing a game. We want the pols who authorize these stupid stunts to be held accountable. We do not seek to besmirch the reputations of men and women who risk their lives daily in a dangerous job.

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I certainly have no argument with your position. You understand the situation perfectly. The decision to execute this raid was obviously made very high up the chain of command. Raids such as this have political ramifications and are not done on the whim of even mid level supervisors.

As a poker player myself, obviously, I don't like crackdowns on poker any more than you do. I was merely responding to the condescending comments of the other poster.

[IgorSmiles]

nobody in their right mind blames the cops for the busts. clearly, they are just doing their jobs. However, you'd be even further out of your mind to ask a NYC cop for a receipt for your money. That will be seen as disrespecting their authority and they will think youre a wise ass.

[45suited]

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you'd be even further out of your mind to ask a NYC cop for a receipt for your money. That will be seen as disrespecting their authority and they will think youre a wise ass.

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Agreed.