Dealing with UI overcards

gmandan · #1 07-12-2005, 02:44 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (4.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero folds, MP2 folds.

River: (6.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Am I passive in checking this hand on the flop? With two players to come, I didn't think it was reasonable to bet, or should I have bet and would it have been an easy fold to a raise? I'm just somewhat confused with playing overcards UI on the flop with such bad position.

Another hand:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, 5 folds, BB caps, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

I think in this situation I should have folded the turn since I'm not getting any odds to call for my overs and some of them might be dirty with the UTG+2 raising and BB capping PF.

aK13 · #2 07-12-2005, 02:48 AM

Bet the flop.

If it's 3 handed on the turn, I'd bet again folding to a raise.

check/fold the river.

Kumubou · #3 07-12-2005, 03:11 AM

Hand 1: Bet the flop; even donks can pick up the weakness when you raise pre-flop and then check down the flop. I would not be surprised if your hand was best here (or only behind some random-ass PP). If you manage to peace someone out on the flop, I may or may not bang away at the turn (player/board dependent). Ditto on the river, based on some combination of the number of opponents and how likely they will go to showdown either with absolute crap or how likely they can find a fold. You can turbo-muck to any raise.

Hand 2: Weeeeeeird hand. I doubt BB has AA or KK (since you hold one of each), so QQ seems likely. (But he checks the flop -- bwah?) Again, reads? I peel that turn; if you are up against QQ all 6 outs are good, and if you are up against KK 3 of your outs are good. I roughly guess you have about 4 outs. Fold the river UI unless you have a read with the BB being looney (that line he took is bizarre).

-K

arbuthnot · #4 07-12-2005, 03:24 AM

My guess for hand 2 is that BB has JJ and took a weird line because he was scared it'd get checked around on the turn.

JKDStudent · #5 07-12-2005, 03:50 AM

Blind:

This is a weak point for me as well, so I can't say how good this advice is. That being said...

Hand 1, checking the flop is fine. Auto-betting could be a leak. No one is going to put you on a seven, and there's a flush draw out there that you have no piece of. Plus, you're giving everyone at least 9.5:1 odds, which isn't going to get much to fold. You're much better off waiting for the turn to make a decision.

On the turn, I might bet the K. People are more likely to give you credit for something like AK in this case. The fold is... well, I'm not giving CO credit for a King here. He's last to act, and everyone involved has shown weakness. Since you checked the turn and CO bet, I wouldn't mind a raise here. Get the other two players out, MAYBE even fold CO himself (1/2 can be pretty weak/tight). Then bet the river, no matter what falls. Fold to a river raise. But this is a time when your high cards might just win unimproved. The paired board makes this more likely.

Hand 2: Do NOT bet this flop. There's a flush draw and straight draw (and you have a piece of neither), capped pf (which means SOMEONE probably has a pocket pair), and 13.5 bets in the pot already? Betting accomplishes absolutely nothing. Check and see what the turn brings.

On the turn, you're getting better than 10:1. I still don't know if that's enough to call. You have overcards, but who knows if they're any good? With that J, you could be reverse dominated, and if BB capped pf with AA or KK... well, even if one of your cards pairs, it could get very expensive. Plus, your backdoor straight draw just went out the window. Unless you have a read that says BB would cap pf (out of position, no less) without a big pair, I fold this turn.

A hand that looks really good when it's dealt to you doesn't necessarily stay that way. That's why overcard play can be a big leak for people. Don't get married to a hand.

*EDIT* In Hand 1, a flop bet isn't a bad idea. Your overcards could easily win UI, and even one fold helps that happen. However, I think I still prefer a check. Sure, it may show weakness, but a turn bet faces people with worse odds. If you're really lucky, whoever is closing the action on the flop may decide to bet, and you can raise right there. The pot is reaching a decent size. You need to try to win it, not bloat it. I think I risk a free card to make my turn bet more effective.

SCfuji · #6 07-12-2005, 03:55 AM

bet the king in hand 1

hand 2 looks okay.