The worst mistakes in NL are made with drawing hands

[Luke]

I just wanted to say that this was one of the best threads I've read on this (No limit) forum. Very interesting guys and special thanks to Capone for the great start.

Luke

[slogger]

This should be converted into a short essay and permanently posted somewhere on the site. Very valuable insight into draws and semibluffing in NLHE.

Thanks, all!

[Nottom]

Nothing personal, but I really hate when people do this. Its not fair to the others at the table for one person to just be handed a mountain of chips. I would much prefer if someone had to leave, for them to just leave and let the blinds eat them. Sure it gives an advantage to the people to their right, but its not as bad as just handing your stack to the first person with a good hand.

[tewall]

I've having trouble following your logic here. The poster said he overbets the pot with top pair/top kicker against a coordinated board to wreck the odds of drawers, and you're saying he shouldn't do that because his top pair/top kicker might not be good?! How would recommend he play then?

[Gus]

To be honnest with you, I would tend to agree... and given a choice I would rather let the blinds eat me. however, the problem at Ladbrokes seem to be that the software will allow you 30 seconds to reconnect everytime it's your time to play, therefore slowing down the play massively. I once was in a tournament where one guy wasnt actually playing (disconnected)... it took forever for him to be eaten, and that was extremely painful to play.

[Daithi]

Great post Al Capone. I've seen the exact same thing myself, and even been busted out when a drawing hand rivered my top set. I just buy back in knowing I'll have the best of it in the end.

So here is my 1% disagreement. I like to play aggressively when I am in a pot, and take a lot of pots when I am in a late position. However, sometimes people start checking a flop to me and when I make my pot sized bet to take the pot they move all-in on me (or atleast make a big raise). That is, at some point they realize I am stealing pots and decide to trap me. In this case I will lay the hand down if I don't have the outs, but if I do have the outs I'll call knowing I am a dog.

If I suck out that is great, but even if I lose I want them to know moving all-in on me doesn't mean I will always fold. I don't want anyone to stop my picking up those smaller pots. If I pickup 7 pots worth $15 and then go all-in for $100 where I am a 2:1 dog then the smaller pots give me some compensation for taking the worst of it. Once again I don't want someone to stop me from taking those smaller pots.

[DJA]

If the stacks are deep, I bet the pot... I only overbet the pot for a couple specific reasons:

1. I am short stacked, and I will have to put a significant portion of my stack in on a pot sized bet anyway.
2. I believe players will call my big hand (not just a pair type big either), with much weaker hands like top pair top kicker. For instance I will go all-in for 10X the pot with a set if I think someone will call me with an over pair or top pair or a big draw.

So I recommend betting the pot... It is still a big mistake to call on a draw... I will give an example of why I think it is a mistake to call a lone bettor on a flush draw only.

Say you have the nut flush draw against top pair top kicker... you have 9 outs. Now I bet the pot into you, and you think, "my draw is better then 2:1 and I am getting 2:1 from the pot, so I should call."

The problem is when you miss on the turn, which you usually will, you will now have to call another bet again. So you can't really consider a flush draw as a 2:1 chance to complete unless you don't have to call a turn bet if you miss.

Also, say you hit your flush on the turn, will top pair top kicker pay you off. I usually wouldn't, especially if you were a deep stack.

IMO, overbetting the pot is a mistake except against weak opponents, or if you are almost out of money anyway.

Just My Thoughts,

[Al_Capone_Junior]

there are always times when you'll flop a hand like top pair top kicker, but wind up behind to two pair or a set. There's not much that can be done about these situations, but there is good news. You'll usually get raised when this happens. When I get raised and it's uncoordinated, I think to myself about what they might have called a PF raise with. A 8 2 board doesn't leave much doubt when you get raised. Now some will raise with draws, that's true. But as you stated, it's also a matter of reading hands and people.

I have found overbetting the pot to be very effective, both in ring games and tourneys. I don't ALWAYS make a HUGE overbet, where you're saying to bet the pot, I typically bet a bit more, but not like 2x 3x 4x etc.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

By playing the way I do, that is betting the pot or a bit more when I have a strong hand like top pair, top kicker, I can also steal lots of small pots by betting the same way. You have a point about stealing lots of small ones, then being able to play a bigger one with some cushion. I think you've been reading Super/System, because some of what you say is practically straight from the book.

Now if I attempt to steal a pot and get raised, I'll call only if I have sufficient outs to justify it, or if I have doubts as to whether the raiser has a real hand, or is making a play at me. Despite what Doyle says, I don't like to call big bets when there's a very good chance that I have the worst of it. When all factors combined justify a call, great, I'm not afraid of variance, nor do I want anyone to stop me from stealing small pots.

To everyone who participated in this tread, thanks. It was a great thread, giving me additional insights beyond just those that I wanted to discuss. Many posters here had very good insights on the subject that I hadn't considered before.

I will save this tread and perhaps turn it into an essay. If I do, everyone who participated will be listed at the end as being a contributor.

Al

[Daithi]

You were right Al Capone. I learned to play NL from Super System although I've read the Cloutier and Caffione books as well -- trying to take a little from each.

BTW, I don't ALWAYS call when I think I'm a dog -- only when I have somebody playing back at me too much.