The Idea of Intelligence

[Siegmund]

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Siegmund I appreciate your response and I agree with alot of what you are saying. However my question isn't why don't people with IQs worry more about their social skills, it was does that make them not as intelligent. I don't think it makes them stupid just wondering if that should be a consideration when you think about a person as intelligent.


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If they have a coherent reason for having deliberately neglected certain social skills, I don't think that counts as a strike against intelligence.

Is it a consideration? Sure it is. If a person devotes their whole energies to the social skills - believing it's important to belong to all the right clubs, or to take two hours primping to look perfect before she (or he!) goes out on a date - that destroys all hope of qualifying as intelligent in my book. (Oh, you meant in the other direction, didn't you...heh.)

My threshold for accusing someone of wasting too much effort on the social graces and not enough on worthwhile pursuits is likely lower than yours, I admit.
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I was talking about the ability to handle yourself in a manner that will not put off people from wanting to be around (unless they do it by design).


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Here I am not so sure I agree with where you are going. If people are put off by someone's natural manner, I tend to assume that has more to do with other people being too lazy or intolerant to understand. If I know I am right and someone else is wrong about something, and I tell them so, ideally they will see the error of their ways and be appreciative; now, if they don't take well to the news, or don't believe me, or whatever, that is entirely their problem, not mine. (Unless we're talking about a teacher failing to make himself clear to a student, or something like that, where the teacher does have to examine himself and make sure he's presenting his message clearly.)

The old "a hundred million people can't be wrong" saw is nonsense. Distance from perfection is the meaningful measure, not distance from average. "The Masses" can be, and often are, very wrong. There is not enough time in one life to save them all from themselves. And devoting one's energies to such a hopeless project as attempting it anyway is a waste of one's own life, not intelligent, or as admirable or honourable as society pretends it is.

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And while I can respect your opinion about "telling it like it is" you don't tell your wife that she is fat." sparing people's feelings and acting in an apporiate manner is just nice for society. The world would be a terrible place if everyone just was 100% honest all the time.


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And here we part ways entirely. My take on it is that the world -- well, the pop-culture, political correctness, and "socialite scene" world -- IS a terrible place right now, in large part because of the sleazes who think taking the easy way out by lying is OK. In my book that is completely inexcusable, no exceptions for feelings or anything else, full stop.

A lot of people, even otherwise sensible people, disagree with me. That doesn't change the fact that all hundred million of them are wrong. Vide supra.

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And attire isn't really what I was thinking about. I am talking about obesity or not taking care of ones body, i.e. exercise. Because body and mind are connected.

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Here we are again in agreement. You'll find plenty of intelligent people unshaven, hair standing on end, and with unmatching socks. But very few who have rotten teeth, weigh 300 pounds, or have ever tried cocaine let alone been addicts. To know what the "right thing to do" is and then do the opposite anyway becomes rarer and rarer as people become more intelligent. So, yes, if you come upon a stranger who is not taking care of himself in that way, it's fair for you to assume lower intelligence.

And if you lie to people you care about who are fat, instead of helping them improve themselves, that reflects badly on both you for trying such a trick, and them for listening and deluding themselves instead of accepting the truth. Even wives.

[daryn]

man, i really like where this siegmund is coming from. it's almost like he's typing exactly what i'm thinking.

[drudman]

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man, i really like where this siegmund is coming from. it's almost like he's typing exactly what i'm thinking.

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Maybe Siegmund is your brain manipulating your computer while you sleep.

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[Aytumious]

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man, i really like where this siegmund is coming from. it's almost like he's typing exactly what i'm thinking.

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Maybe Siegmund is your brain manipulating your computer while you sleep.

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Since we can't prove it is not happening I think we should seriously consider it as being true.

[LargeCents]

The way I approach intelligence is EXACTLY the way I'd approach any other "gift", such as being able to run fast, for example. Some people are plain and simply gifted at running. It has nothing to do with how they dress, how they act, etc, etc. Some gifted runners are real jerks, some are really cool, some are really stupid, some are quite intelligent. It's wierd that running fast has absolutely nothing to do with any other aspect of life.

I claim the same can be said about intelligence. Some intelligent people are quite socially refined and whatnot, others are more reclusive, etc. Maybe you think because someone is intelligent, they should automatically know better than dress like a bum and smell like a drunk. Well, intelligence doesn't necessarily keep someone away from alcoholism, for example, any more than if someone was seemingly fast enough to "run away" from a liquor bottle. lol. The value of intelligence is sometimes overrated, IMO.

[DCWildcat]

I'm a little skeptical of the absolutism of the "honesty is the best policy" belief.

As the son of two psychologists (and a slowly emerging one myself), I can state with certainty that there exist many times when honesty is not the best policy. If we're ascribing the value of honesty to it's consequences (as Siegmund has done), it becomes rather obvious.

Here's an example: Ms. Smith leaves her child in the car on a hot day to bring her groceries inside. The temperature swells inside the car to over 150 degrees. The child stumbles out and collapses on the yard. Ms. Smith calls 911, the paramedics arrive and take him to the hospital, where he is pronounced dead on arrival. Ms. Smith is completely clueless as to what killed her son.

Now suppose the doctor bearing the bad news somehow has the option of telling her the child died of a preexisting condition. The mother would never find out the truth if he lied. Research shows an overwhelming tendency for parents to commit suicide if their child dies at a parent's fault. Should the doctor lie?

Or suppose another medical ethics example from my philosophy professor. A Jehovah's Witness needs a bypass surgery. There's a 35% chance he'll need a blood transfusion during the surgery. But he tells the doctor that he cannot receive foreign blood due to his religious beliefs, and he'd rather die than get that transfusion (also suppose he'll commit suicide if he finds out he received foreign blood). The doctor, an atheist (who also happens to abide by his medical standards), says "ok," performs the surgery. It becomes apparent that the man needs a blood transfusion, and the doctor gives him one. When the patient wakes up he asks the doctor if he received blood. "Of course not," replies the doctor. Should the doctor have been honest?

[DCWildcat]

Intelligence itself is defined differently by different psychologists. Some use it to refer specifically to pattern recognition abilities. Some believe in "emotional IQs." Creativity, pragmatic problem solving ability, and other such traits are often measured.

A side note on the social skills thing--about 50% of a person's personality is believed to be determined by genetics, believe it or not.

[CancerMan]

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Now suppose the doctor bearing the bad news somehow has the option of telling her the child died of a preexisting condition. The mother would never find out the truth if he lied. Research shows an overwhelming tendency for parents to commit suicide if their child dies at a parent's fault. Should the doctor lie?

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I don't think everyone should have to pander to people like this. The woman made a mistake and if she commits suicide, maybe she'll be an example for others. Even if she doesn't I don't understand the need to keep people like this around.

If a person is aware of the fact that they are giving up meaningless social relationships for the ability to devote more time to their own self improvement and growth in knowledge then I think they may be head and shoulders above the rest. They're able to adapt and clean themselves up when they need to, but they don't make an effort everyday to impress every person they come in contact with.
I agree with Siegmund 100% on this.

[DCWildcat]

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Now suppose the doctor bearing the bad news somehow has the option of telling her the child died of a preexisting condition. The mother would never find out the truth if he lied. Research shows an overwhelming tendency for parents to commit suicide if their child dies at a parent's fault. Should the doctor lie?

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I don't think everyone should have to pander to people like this. The woman made a mistake and if she commits suicide, maybe she'll be an example for others. Even if she doesn't I don't understand the need to keep people like this around.

If a person is aware of the fact that they are giving up meaningless social relationships for the ability to devote more time to their own self improvement and growth in knowledge then I think they may be head and shoulders above the rest. They're able to adapt and clean themselves up when they need to, but they don't make an effort everyday to impress every person they come in contact with.
I agree with Siegmund 100% on this.

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That's an astonishingly cruel and illogical outlook on things. How do you justify suicide "as an example?"

Maybe I should qualify it like an economist, then. Suppose 100 utils are effected by lying, and 50 are effected by telling her the truth?

I also agree regarding social skills, although there's a correlation between people with strong social skills and happiness in life. That's not to say social skills should be forced upon them, just that they're nice to have.

[CancerMan]

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That's an astonishingly cruel and illogical outlook on things. How do you justify suicide "as an example?"

Maybe I should qualify it like an economist, then. Suppose 100 utils are effected by lying, and 50 are effected by telling her the truth?

I also agree regarding social skills, although there's a correlation between people with strong social skills and happiness in life. That's not to say social skills should be forced upon them, just that they're nice to have.

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Don't say it's illogical, you haven't heard what I've had to say on it.
I'm saying the mother's suicide may spread the word to others that you should be a better parent and use common sense instead of leaving your child in a car. ANYWAY, I think society would be better off if "the less desirable segments" of the population were told relentlessly the truth about themselves and they then chose to end their lives. The gene pool would be stronger. I'm not saying that this should happen AT ALL! I'm just asking you to consider what would happen in my scenario. Would it really be that bad in the long run for humans? If you were to not believe in a life after death, and maybe the only goal we have as humans is to produce a stronger, more efficient person and cause the next generation to be better off.

But to be honest, I'm very happy that people aren't honest all the time. I'm socially akward and if I was told everyday that I was useless and no one liked me, I would have ended up on top of a clocktower with pantyhose on my head long ago.

But if I were to look at it from an economic viewpoint, then it completely takes it out of context.