Disturbing e-mail from partypoker

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
Their making profit off of PP data files.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're making money off of freely available information that has no restrictions on usage. That's perfectly game. Putting the effort in to use and repackage freely available information is stock and trade business. Just ask IBM and the the Linux boxes they sell.

[MentalNomad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Their making profit off of PP data files.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're making money off of freely available information that has no restrictions on usage. That's perfectly game. Putting the effort in to use and repackage freely available information is stock and trade business. Just ask IBM and the the Linux boxes they sell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no. It's not freely available information that has no restrictions on usage. It's hand history files generated on your computer by your installation of the Party Poker software; you don't necessarily have any rights beyond personal use. You may not have rights to pool the HHF data with others, and others certainly don't have the rights to sell the data.

Think of it this way: perhaps you have rights to record an audio stream off the radio. Do you have the right to upload that content to a service that collects recorded audio streams segments? Can that service then sell the collected streams to other people who upload? It's not a simple question.

From theTerms of Service:
[ QUOTE ]
10. Software.
You may install and use the computer programs we make available from PartyPoker.com ("Software") on a hard disk or other storage device and make backup copies of the Software, provided that such use and backup copying is only for your own personal use for participating in the Games in accordance with this Agreement, and further, that such installation and use is made through a computer of which you are the primary user. The Software's structure, organisation and code are the valuable trade secrets of the Company and/or its group Companies and/or its licensors. You obtain no rights to the Software except to use it in accordance with this Agreement. Save as expressly permitted by law, you are strictly prohibited from, and agree not to modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise attempt to discover the source code of the Software or any part of it or to create, publish or distribute derivative works from the Software. You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country or used in any manner prohibited by any applicable laws, restrictions or regulations.


[/ QUOTE ]

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Their making profit off of PP data files.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're making money off of freely available information that has no restrictions on usage. That's perfectly game. Putting the effort in to use and repackage freely available information is stock and trade business. Just ask IBM and the the Linux boxes they sell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no. It's not freely available information that has no restrictions on usage. It's hand history files generated on your computer by your installation of the Party Poker software; you don't necessarily have any rights beyond personal use. You may not have rights to pool the HHF data with others, and others certainly don't have the rights to sell the data.

Think of it this way: perhaps you have rights to record an audio stream off the radio. Do you have the right to upload that content to a service that collects recorded audio streams segments? Can that service then sell the collected streams to other people who upload? It's not a simple question.

From theTerms of Service:
[ QUOTE ]
10. Software.
You may install and use the computer programs we make available from PartyPoker.com ("Software") on a hard disk or other storage device and make backup copies of the Software, provided that such use and backup copying is only for your own personal use for participating in the Games in accordance with this Agreement, and further, that such installation and use is made through a computer of which you are the primary user. The Software's structure, organisation and code are the valuable trade secrets of the Company and/or its group Companies and/or its licensors. You obtain no rights to the Software except to use it in accordance with this Agreement. Save as expressly permitted by law, you are strictly prohibited from, and agree not to modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise attempt to discover the source code of the Software or any part of it or to create, publish or distribute derivative works from the Software. You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country or used in any manner prohibited by any applicable laws, restrictions or regulations.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please. That quote from their T&C is regarding the software. HH's are not part of the software. They are a product of a player's play. They can be e-mailed to a person's e-mail account, where they undeniably become the recipient's property.

The paragraph you quote is about the .exe file and related components that make Party Poker work. HH's are not part of that software suite. They are, on the other hand, more akin to graphics a user might produce while using Photoshop. Or receipts a person might receive from a convenience store. They are a record of transactions.

Sorry, I'd like to be more reasoned here but there isn't much more to say than this: you're flat wrong.

[MentalNomad]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh please. That quote from their T&C is regarding the software. HH's are not part of the software. They are a product of a player's play. They can be e-mailed to a person's e-mail account, where they undeniably become the recipient's property.

The paragraph you quote is about the .exe file and related components that make Party Poker work. HH's are not part of that software suite. They are, on the other hand, more akin to graphics a user might produce while using Photoshop. Or receipts a person might receive from a convenience store. They are a record of transactions.

Sorry, I'd like to be more reasoned here but there isn't much more to say than this: you're flat wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

The TOS refers to their software, right. But you're wrong that it doesn't apply to the HHF's. When you buy a piece of software intended to create other digital media -- a word processor, graphics editor, language compiler -- you often have full rights to the resulting digital content. But not always. Consider using MySQL to create a database. MySQL is free to set up and use, but if you try to sell a service or content, MySQL wants licensing fees.

Moreover, the purpose of Party's software is NOT to produce HHF file for you. It is to allow you to play poker with other players. Sure, the HHF's are a written record, but you are wrong to assume they are yours.

If it belongs to YOU, but I'm in the hand, what about MY input into the hand? Perhaps you can claim ownership of your actions, but not mine. And what about Party's actions? The cards that fall are theirs. Perhaps you can take a hand history, remove the cards, and remove all player actions but your own -- the remainder is perhaps a record of all that is solely yours. You can give that to any data-pooling service you like, but don't include my hands. Maybe I can sue the service (and all their users) for collecting data about me without permission?

The analogy of a simple receipt is just not appropriate. Try this one: it's like you're a caller to a radio talk show. There are many other callers, and it is moderated by a radio station. If you record the resulting stream, do you have rights to it, beyond personal use? No. Can someone else take the recording and sell it as a service? No.

Honestly, I do a lot of HHF data collection and use a HUD when I play. I will do so as long as it's allowed. But I'm not to be a stubborn idiot and deny legitimate complaints by the people who own the forum (poker rooms) in which I play! You are not playing poker on the internet -- you are playing on Party's network, or PokerStars' network, etc.