a semi-theoretical question

[SossMan]

$2/$3 NL cash game at Commerce

Hero has about $275 and villian has $235.

Villian has been active but hasn't been caught being out of line. I suspect that is simply a coincidence, but can't be sure.

Hero has AKo in the BB. MP open limp, villian limps on the button, SB completes, Hero raises to $15, only SB folds.

Flop is
K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Pot is $48.

Hero bets $40, MP folds, villian instantly pushes.

I don't really want to debate calling or folding, simply this:

Should having the Ace of clubs in the hero's hand make him more or less willing to call the all in?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
$2/$3 NL cash game at Commerce

Hero has about $275 and villian has $235.

Villian has been active but hasn't been caught being out of line. I suspect that is simply a coincidence, but can't be sure.

Hero has AKo in the BB. MP open limp, villian limps on the button, SB completes, Hero raises to $15, only SB folds.

Flop is
K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Pot is $48.

Hero bets $40, MP folds, villian instantly pushes.

I don't really want to debate calling or folding, simply this:

Should having the Ace of clubs in the hero's hand make him more or less willing to call the all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I'll bite. I say more willing. If hes the type to push with a flush draw, you have some insurance. If you are behind, to a set or 2-pair, you have more suckout potential.

[DrLAXLAX]

If y are raising with AK then what board do you waiting for? AAK? Clear call for me, no matter what kind of ace y have. I think other guy bets his AQ.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
If y are raising with AK then what board do you waiting for? AAK? Clear call for me, no matter what kind of ace y have. I think other guy bets his AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the [censored]? AQ? How about TT?

To the OP, I'm less likely to call because this guy can't even be pushing Ax[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] if I have it (and I don't think he's pushing a non-nut flush draw without at least a pair to go with it).

If this guy isn't pushing with a draw here, then my A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] adds maybe 2% to my win advantage and that's not really enough to factor too heavily into my decision (i.e. I would have to be able to make a rediculously accurate calculation in my head based on very precise and detailed read to have that 2% push it into + or - EV.

[elus2]

[ QUOTE ]
If y are raising with AK then what board do you waiting for? AAK? Clear call for me, no matter what kind of ace y have. I think other guy bets his AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

KT or a hand like pair+flush draw or flush+straight draw is a more likely hand for villain to be pushing with here. I'm mucking even with Ac unless villain has shown a habit for pushing on the flop with weaker hands.

[boxedIn]

Alright, let's do it Ben Franklin style and make a list.

Pros
If he's semi-bluffing a non-nut flush draw, you take away one of his outs and give yourself a redraw if it hits on the turn.

If he has a better hand than you, you gain a bit of suckout potential.

You might be freerolling him if he also has AK.

Cons
This means he doesn't have the nut flush draw, which means he's more likely to have a stronger holding.

That's all I got -- are there more?


All in all, I'm straddling the line between "who cares?" to "I'd be more likely to call." There seems to be very little con to having the Ac, but also very little pro. The main advantage, as I see it, is the freeroll against another AK. That is a dream -- not a huge one, but a dream nonetheless.

Am I missing something from either the pro/con side?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
If y are raising with AK then what board do you waiting for? AAK? Clear call for me, no matter what kind of ace y have. I think other guy bets his AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

please read:

I don't really want to debate calling or folding, simply this:

Should having the Ace of clubs in the hero's hand make him more or less willing to call the all in?

[DrLAXLAX]

Ok, but if opponent has KT, TT, why to push here? Miniraise. If opponent think that you are betting drawing hand like thet then push is ok. IMO if he has monster he wount want to push you out. But thats not the question.

[xorbie]

Let's look at it this way. Against the nut flush draw, you are about a 2:1 favorite, so you have 66% pot equity. If he only has a nut flush draw 10% of the time here, that's 6.6% pot equity against his range. So if you have the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], that means you lose 6.6% equity against his range in exchange for an extra 2% or so that the backdoor nut flush draw gives you.

So it looks like him having the nut flush draw as little has 3% of the time when he pulls this move, means I am less likely to call with the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in my hand.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, let's do it Ben Franklin style and make a list.

Pros
If he's semi-bluffing a non-nut flush draw, you take away one of his outs and give yourself a redraw if it hits on the turn.

If he has a better hand than you, you gain a bit of suckout potential.

You might be freerolling him if he also has AK.

Cons
This means he doesn't have the nut flush draw, which means he's more likely to have a stronger holding.

That's all I got -- are there more?


All in all, I'm straddling the line between "who cares?" to "I'd be more likely to call." There seems to be very little con to having the Ac, but also very little pro. The main advantage, as I see it, is the freeroll against another AK. That is a dream -- not a huge one, but a dream nonetheless.

Am I missing something from either the pro/con side?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, you pretty much hit it.

anyway, i had the Ac and i called (after a pretty long think for this game) and he had Kc5c and whiffed