Overcalls? X-post from HUSH

[baronzeus]

Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage. Except this time hero has major trash on the flop, and loses to even a random overcall.

[Moneyline]

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Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

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Even though most players will throw away 97 (especially offsuit) many players will limp with hands like 97s in late position. But even bad players are unlikely to call preflop with big lick, and if they do play it because their juvenile sense of humor tells them it's funny, they'll usually raise with it.

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Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage.

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There was nothing in OP's original post about reads. With no reads how do you know your opponent will play like this. Perahps your experience is different than mine, but I certainly wouldn't categorize the typical 5/10 6 max. player as the sort of player who will open limp with 96 in lp.

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Except this time hero has major trash on the flop,

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No he doesn't. He has a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw on a flop that is unlikely to have hit anybody who voluntarily entered the pot.

[baronzeus]

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Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

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Even though most players will throw away 97 (especially offsuit) many players will limp with hands like 97s in late position. But even bad players are unlikely to call preflop with big lick, and if they do play it because their juvenile sense of humor tells them it's funny, they'll usually raise with it.

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Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage.

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There was nothing in OP's original post about reads. With no reads how do you know your opponent will play like this. Perahps your experience is different than mine, but I certainly wouldn't categorize the typical 5/10 6 max. player as the sort of player who will open limp with 96 in lp.

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Except this time hero has major trash on the flop,

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No he doesn't. He has a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw on a flop that is unlikely to have hit anybody who voluntarily entered the pot.

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gutshot+backdoor < 5 outs to win. betting is only for fold equity and i think fold equity is extremely low here with all the backdoor draws possible. that makes betting moronic.

you're right, there are no reads, so assuming a hand range is stupid.

and sb could have completed with any two. i complete with almost any 2 in this situation.

[Moneyline]

Okay, this will be my last response in this exchange because it seems our argument has gone from a logical one to an emotional one. That said...

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gutshot+backdoor < 5 outs to win. betting is only for fold equity and i think fold equity is extremely low here with all the backdoor draws possible. that makes betting moronic.

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I think you have more than <5 outs here. If no one has clubs, which will usually be the case, you have an extra out. Additionally, this is the sort of board that won't typically pair anybody, so your outs to a pair are probably good as well.

As far as backdoor draws go, the only other ones I see are runner runner spades and an unlikely runner runner straight. OP's chances of picking up a backdoor draw are probably better than his opponents, so I don't think there's any reason to fear this.

This makes for a very reasonable chance of catching the best hand if you don't take down the pot immediately.

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you're right, there are no reads, so assuming a hand range is stupid.


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If that's what you got from my post, then either you misread it or I did a poor job of explaining myself. Putting your opponents on a range of hands was crucial to my argument. My range just happened to be different than yours.

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and sb could have completed with any two. i complete with almost any 2 in this situation.




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Even if SB would complete with any 2 in this spot (FWIW, this is not what I would expect a typical player to do) this would still be a very unorthodox way of playing either ace high or a flopped pair. Flopped pairs and ace-high pose the most serious threat to OP's hand IMO, so even if SB would limp with any 2 cards here, I don't think it poses much of a problem.

I hope I haven't offended you. I'm just supplying my opinion on how to play a poker hand.

Good luck...