Anybody in disagreement w/ Ciaffone on this??

akvsaq · #1 07-05-2005, 06:37 AM

A $10-$20 game. You raise from early position with A-J. A middle player, the cutoff, the button, and both blinds call. There is $120 in the pot and six players. The flop is: 7-4-3, giving you two overcards and a backdoor nut flush-draw. Everyone checks. The turn is the J, giving you top pair, top kicker. The small blind checks. The big blind bets. What do you do?
Answer

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Call, don't raise. Despite having top pair, top kicker, you cannot be sure you are not up against a straight, which would mean you have no outs. If the big blind is betting two pair, than you may have sufficient outs to play on. If the big blind is betting a worse jack, than be happy to let him bet your hand for you.

Just wondering what you guys thought. Wouldn't you guys raise to protect your vulnerable top pair?

Jake (The Snake) · #2 07-05-2005, 06:52 AM

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Just wondering what you guys thought. Wouldn't you guys raise to protect your vulnerable top pair?

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I sure would.

Argus · #3 07-05-2005, 06:59 AM

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<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />

Just wondering what you guys thought. Wouldn't you guys raise to protect your vulnerable top pair?

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I sure would.

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I would too. I've never played in the kind of game Ciaffone is describing where calling is optimal. He wants players loose enough to play 65 or a similarly ugly two pair hand, but good and tricky enough that raising a donkbet with TPTK on the turn on a relatively drawless board is wrong.

I can think of lots of hands that bet this that are behind TPTK and will call down from the raise. TT-88, any 7, and others. I'd be much more likely to just call if it was headsup and I thought villain would fold if I raised, but bet many worse hands on the river if I called.

oreogod · #4 07-05-2005, 07:16 AM

My biggest problem is right here:

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...If the big blind is betting a worse jack, than be happy to let him bet your hand for you.

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That is pretty insane reasoning. I raise this, if u are ahead, there are a good number of overs u would like out of this. calling and letting the river kill u is pretty bad.

As far as the str8...its possible, but unlikely...say it gets three bet, then yeah, there could be a str8 out there, or a set. But he always seems to say that in his book, u could be up against a str8 or a set.

I like his book, but it has problems like this in it. But it will open your eyes a bit as well I think. But dont take it for gospel.

EDIT: BB betting into a field that checked it around on the flop, is not exactly the shining symbol of strength.

Malachii · #5 07-05-2005, 07:21 AM

Just out of curiousity, what exactly qualifies as a donk bet?

A donk that's betting?

Argus · #6 07-05-2005, 07:23 AM

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Just out of curiousity, what exactly qualifies as a donk bet?

A donk that's betting?

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A donk bet usually refers to an unexpected bet into you from a previously passive player. I suppose the term might be more apt if you'd bet the flop and then villain had bet into you, but I'm still calling it a donk bet because chances are he's betting with the worst of it.

speirs · #7 07-05-2005, 07:29 AM

Wow I really think just calling is bad. And the reasoning behind it "Maybe he has 65 for a straight" Yeah right if you are going to think like that there will be straights, flushes and who knows what on every board. You better stop playing poker when you think like that.

TRWIII · #8 07-05-2005, 08:12 AM

When this book was picked apart in the books club (over a ayear ago I believe), the overall consensus was that while reasonably solid, there was a good bit of weak-tight and passive advice. This hand was used as an example if memory serves. Another example is the authors irrational fear of avoiding low flush draws because a better flush may already be there.

TRWIII

TripleH68 · #9 07-05-2005, 08:42 AM

This is a bit of an interesting spot.

If villain in BB holds a 7 - is he betting this flop so pfr can raise it and hopefully clear the field?

On the turn it is most likely BB holds a J, possible junky two pair, silly to believe he is betting a made str8 or set.

Middle player, cutoff and button all cold called preflop. Checking through the flop(no overpair to the board) it is possible one of these players holds a J. Smooth calling here gives this player the chance to draw getting 8:1 to a hand like KJs or QJs.

I am for raising this turn. Unless the late position players are very aggressive and straightforward. If they will raise a J in this case(figuring you on AK or AQ) you could call/raise the turn. FPS?

jskills · #10 07-05-2005, 09:14 AM

I'd raise the turn, but I'd also bet the flop. So what the hell do I know? Seriously, I can't see why you wouldn't want to raise in that spot.

Maybe it's because I'm used to playing 2/4 and Ciaffone's book is really geared towards Middle Limit? I read the book myself, and did find a significant amount of the advice to be somewhat lacking in aggression / overly cautious. But then again, I realize I am in no position to really criticize ...