AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.

BZ_Zorro · #1 07-02-2005, 01:15 AM

There was a recent discussion about raising AK preflop. One poster commented you should be happy to pick up the blinds. I completely disagree.

These concepts seem contradictory to me:

1. With big slick, two-thirds of the time you miss the flop and only have Ace high.
2. You want to drive out as many people as possible.

You should drive out some trash like the blinds, but shouldn't you also price yourself in for your draw?

The convention wisdom with AA/KK is that you should raise to build a pot as you have legitimately the best hand. However with AKo you should 'raise to narrow the field'. I think this idea is flawed. I believe you are also and mostly raising to build a pot with a strong hand.

My opinion is that when you flop an A or K, AK is't all that different to AA/KK. Your opponent still needs 2 pair, a set, straight etc to beat you, but they have 1 less board card to do it with. Thus when you flop and A or K, you have a good hand and want people in the pot (just like AA/KK).

For the times when you don't flop it, you need to have priced yourself in for a 1/3 draw. In addition, the only 'field' you're narrowing with big raises are hands you strongly dominate (such as AQ/AJ/AT/Axs/KQ/KJ). Pocket pairs are still calling.

Thoughts?

punter11235 · #2 07-02-2005, 01:46 AM

I agree with you. I made similair comment some time ago.
"driving out as many opponents as possible" is just a nonsense. Winnning blinds may be good but in 25/50 game.
With AK you are happy to have 3/4 opponents because the hand is most profitable then.

Best wishes

Rosie5 · #3 07-02-2005, 02:42 AM

1/3 of the time you hit and stand to bust someone with a worse ace or king [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

making them enter the pot at a large fee with a big (but smaller than yours) ace or king really could make for a monster pot. The times you miss you can stab at it with a follow up bet and take it down some of the time. If you both hit and they have a worse ace or king in a heads up pot, they're in trouble.

people play too many suited broadways to a raise, that's especially a fact in the low stakes.

swolfe · #4 07-02-2005, 02:46 AM

you have a better chance of scooping the pot with a continuation bet when you're heads up.

PokerFink · #5 07-02-2005, 03:28 AM

I totally agree.

I'm always amazed by people who complain about playing AK in multi-way pots. Don't make a continuation bet into five players if you miss, and don't get married to tptk. Pretty simple. I'd much rather win 12 BB's when I flop an ace and win on the flop than 3 BB's.

gulebjorn · #6 07-02-2005, 03:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The convention wisdom with AA/KK is that you should raise to build a pot as you have legitimately the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is equally important to narrow the field with these hands. I hate playing big pairs postflop against more than two opponents, big pot or not.

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion is that when you flop an A or K, AK is't all that different to AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's different in the way that all pairs below KK are now a slight favorite against you PF. Postflop, it's like you said. So you are still raising for value, but just as much to narrow the field.

Against one or two opponents, TPTK is likely to be the best hand postflop. Against three or more, you'll probably need more than just a pair to take it down. Any straight draw will be a gutshot and you don't have much flush potential either.

So less opponents means you have more options to take it down postflop:
1) because a continuation bet works better against fewer opponents
2) because the flop you are looking for: TPTK, is more likely to be the best hand against a small field
3) because a multiway pot requires a better hand to take down, and AKo doesn't generate many good draws

comments are welcome

FreakDaddy · #7 07-02-2005, 03:39 AM

I'm really not sure what your comment is about exactly. Are you advocating that you shouldn't raise pre-flop with AK? You're not entirely clear, so I'm in the dark a bit trying to make sense of your presumably insightful post.

PokerFink · #8 07-02-2005, 03:42 AM

He's saying that when you have AKo on the button and everyone and their mother limps to you, you shoulden't make an emormous raise to drive everyone out. Make a medium raise that all the hands you dominate will call, and play a multi-way pot where you still have good equity.

Same goes for UTG. Don't make an emormous raise to drive everyone out, make a standard raise and play the pot multi-way if you have to.

FreakDaddy · #9 07-02-2005, 03:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The convention wisdom with AA/KK is that you should raise to build a pot as you have legitimately the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is equally important to narrow the field with these hands. I hate playing big pairs postflop against more than two opponents, big pot or not.

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion is that when you flop an A or K, AK is't all that different to AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's different in the way that all pairs below KK are now a slight favorite against you PF. Postflop, it's like you said. So you are still raising for value, but just as much to narrow the field.

Against one or two opponents, TPTK is likely to be the best hand postflop. Against three or more, you'll probably need more than just a pair to take it down. Any straight draw will be a gutshot and you don't have much flush potential either.

So less opponents means you have more options to take it down postflop:
1) because a continuation bet works better against fewer opponents
2) because the flop you are looking for: TPTK, is more likely to be the best hand against a small field
3) because a multiway pot requires a better hand to take down, and AKo doesn't generate many good draws

comments are welcome

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. This is poker 101. If BZ is intending that no raise is good with AK, that's a huge mistake.

You have to narrow the field with these hands, because there are very few flops that will give you more than TPTK. I think we all know by now that TPTK rarely takes down big pots. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PokerFink · #10 07-02-2005, 03:45 AM

You're ignoring a few things.

In a multi-way pot, you will win more money when you make the best hand with tptk.

In a multi-way pot, people will be more likely to chase you down with something like 2nd pair or an outkicked top pair.

The larger pot makes it easier to stack someone when you flop big.