30-60 pp hand

obi---one · #1 07-01-2005, 03:38 PM

I have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. There is an UTG+1 limper, i limp in middle position, two more limpers, six of us see the flop.

FLOP 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

First limper leads out. Up to me, DO i raise or call. I can see merits to each play. I raise because, I might be able to fold a slightly stronger ace behind me, leaving me with the best hand. I might have the best hand currently, although it is certainly possible I do not.

That part of the hand works out well for me. Folded back to the original bettor who calls.

Turn 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bets again. I call. Obviously have to call here, nice draw still.

River K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

He bets again. Easy dump or no?

ike · #2 07-01-2005, 04:11 PM

I don't think I like the flop raise. You say you want to fold out better aces but with no raise preflop theres not much of an indication that better aces are out there. Furthermore, even on a totally unscary flop A8 high 6 ways is not much of a hand to be protecting. I'd rather just smoothcall and play my nutflush draw against as many opponents as possible.

The river play depends alot on the opponent, but given no reads I think calling is probably wrong and if I were going to call the river unimproved raising the turn seems much better. He's usually got a small pocket pair here IMO. So I'd usually fold.
If you were gonna call I think bluffraising might actually be better. If you were gonna win calling then raising is the same, so you just have to get him to fold more than 1/10 times he holds the best hand for raising to better than calling. (You still need to get the fold more than 1/5 of the time total for the raise to be better than folding though) This seems right but I may have facked up my math somewhere...

obi---one · #3 07-01-2005, 06:42 PM

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I don't think I like the flop raise. You say you want to fold out better aces but with no raise preflop theres

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Yeah, but what about 10j and kj and 87 and all the crap that people might want to take one off in a semi decent pot with 6 to the flop?

astroglide · #4 07-01-2005, 07:05 PM

unless you're beating the limper with ace high, you shouldn't care much about the other players' overcards. if the limper has just one pair, 77 or lower, and an 8 would have done it for you oh well. your only real concerns here are your ace and your flush draw, and it's very optimistic to think that you can win without either of them. if JT catches a jack it doesn't really change your outlook on the world, it just makes one more guy interested in the pot if you hit. lots of those misc overcards are clubs too. you should offer a chip to somebody if they'll call with 87.

i wouldn't raise to clean up the ace outs because i'm only really worried about A9/AT/AJ and i don't expect to be ahead. the kind of weirdos that overlimp with AQ/AK are might call 2 cold with it anyway, and with a paired flop you can chop some of the time with better aces.

the way he played it, it looks like a pair that didn't want to give out free cards, a club draw that turned a ten, trips, or a boat (in descending order of likelihood). ace high is going to lose here so often it's not even funny. the only thing you're beating is a strangely-played bluff that managed to miss both a ten and a king. the math on bluff raising usually sucks and this is no exception. lots of people will call with terrible hands that are still beating you, and it's a 2-bet investment to try it.

obi---one · #5 07-01-2005, 07:20 PM

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unless you're beating the limper with ace high, you shouldn't care much about the other players' overcards. if the limper has just one pair, 77 or lower, and an 8 would have done it for you oh well. your only real concerns here are your ace and your flush draw, and it's very optimistic to think that you can win without either of them. if JT catches a jack it doesn't really change your outlook on the world, it just makes one more guy interested in the pot if you hit. lots of those misc overcards are clubs too. you should offer a chip to somebody if they'll call with 87.

i wouldn't raise to clean up the ace outs because i'm only really worried about A9/AT/AJ and i don't expect to be ahead. the kind of weirdos that overlimp with AQ/AK are might call 2 cold with it anyway, and with a paired flop you can chop some of the time with better aces.

the way he played it, it looks like a pair that didn't want to give out free cards, a club draw that turned a ten, trips, or a boat (in descending order of likelihood). ace high is going to lose here so often it's not even funny. the only thing you're beating is a strangely-played bluff that managed to miss both a ten and a king.

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I can see the the strenths of just calling and hitting your draw. But, on the river, I don't know. How can you put him on a medium pp when he bets the river. or why do you put him on a k if he bets the turn. I could see an excellently played 4, but not those hands

astroglide · #6 07-01-2005, 07:37 PM

it's a fairly common bet, but it does push him much more toward something like clubs with a ten when he bets the river. with position people will often check down tens or lower, but your typical player won't just get there and check/fold out of position so they just bet it. you missed the edit i made with regard to bluff raising, i assume you're thinking along those lines. considering the pot was played heads up starting at the flop, i don't think there's enough money in there to give it a shot considering how infrequently people fold.

obi---one · #7 07-01-2005, 07:52 PM

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it's a fairly common bet, but it does push him much more toward something like clubs with a ten when he bets the river. with position people will often check down tens or lower, but your typical player won't just get there and check/fold out of position so they just bet it. you missed the edit i made with regard to bluff raising, i assume you're thinking along those lines. considering the pot was played heads up starting at the flop, i don't think there's enough money in there to give it a shot considering how infrequently people fold.

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Yeah, I don't like the bluff-raise. if he has me beat he calls. if i have him beat he folds.