AK BB with two very good players, TPTK check calls the whole way ...

[HajiShirazu]

Regardless of how tight these people may seem, I have yet to see two players where AK isn't a 3 bet against a guy who raised in MP3 and a SB cold caller in a Party online 2/4 game. You have one ace and one king so they usually aren't going to have aces or kings, far more often you'll be against a worse ace and queens or less, or two hands you dominate. And since the SB cold called instead of 3 bet with nobody else in, he usually isn't that great, and if MP3 is so tight that AK isn't a 3 bet against his MP3 range, then he's not a good player either. In any case put your 3 bet in preflop.
This hand plays kind of weird because you didn't 3 bet, but I go ahead and get the checkraise in on the flop. It's not a great flop, in fact it's about as bad as it gets for non flush flops with an ace, but you're giving these guys way too much respect, no matter how tight they are, AK is still a favorite here against their range and you have outs if behind. If you call from the blind with AK (which again is no good) you need to follow through with the checkraise when you get a good flop like this one. By the way, I think betting right out might not be a bad play either. I think MP3 will raise a wide range of hands here including stuff like KK, Ax, maybe even KQ and JJ hoping for the free card, and I put SB on broadway cards or middle pocket pair, and if he has the broadway cards which are often going to have pair plus gutshot against you, you'd like to perhaps face him with two cold.
On the turn the way SB played this hand, a big hand is a possibility. However so are many more hands you beat and getting the MP out is a priority. You mentioned all the hands that he could have that are drawing live against you, this is the reason you need to raise, to try and get a fold from JJ/KK/AJ and the such. Ok, AJ will probably never fold.
The way this hand played out, call on the river and hope he has AK or AJ. Looks like you got at least half unless he's the biggest weakie in the world.

[JJH3984]

Listen, if the raise came from Early position you might have a case for this line. But he raised from M3!!! In my opinion, these two have a range that is so much larger than you give them credit for. AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 77 66 AK AQ AJ AT A9 KQ KJ KTs QJ: these are all hands that even tight passive players will generaly raise with first in on MP3. You are WAY WAY ahead here enough to raise for value on some street before or after the flop.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

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Listen, if the raise came from Early position you might have a case for this line. But he raised from M3!!! In my opinion, these two have a range that is so much larger than you give them credit for. AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 77 66 AK AQ AJ AT A9 KQ KJ KTs QJ: these are all hands that even tight passive players will generaly raise with first in on MP3. You are WAY WAY ahead here enough to raise for value on some street before or after the flop.

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First, eliminate low pockets. Anything below 99, and even 99 is a stretch. This guy does not raise low PPs, and certainly doesn't bet them out when 3 overcards fall facing two strong players. A9 no way he raises that, not in a million years. Now remember, the small blind called cold in front of me, indicating a very strong hand if he's willing to play it with a strong PF raiser out of position. Now let's look at what I am ahead of on the flop:

KK
JJ
KQ
KJ
AJ

KK I can see the SB calling cold with, but he'd almost certainly reraise to get me out. So it's unlikely he has KK, particularly given I have a K in my hand. The raiser might have KK, but again it is somewhat unlikely.

JJ is a possibility, but I would have expected a reraise from the SB with it, and the PF raiser would have checked the flop against the two of us I think.

KQ is possible for both players.

KJ is highly unlikely against this raiser for the SB, and somewhat unlikely from the raiser.

AJ is possible from either player.

Let's look at what I am behind or tied with on the flop:

AA - distinct possibility, particularly given the donk bet on the turn from the SB

QQ - Highly probable from one of them

AQ - Another highly probable hand

A10 - Possible for either player

1010 - Another good chance

AK - SB's donk bet made me think this, but then he folds it.

So essentially if you eliminate KK for the SB, I'd need two extremely strong players to both hold hands that I beat on this flop, which is pretty unlikely, is it not? What are the odds that both have one of the few hands I beat versus the odds that at least one of them has two pair, a set, or a flopped straight? I'd do the math but I am lazy. My intuition tells me against two players with broadway standards, I'm behind far more often than I am ahead on this flop.

The turn raise by the PF raiser screams either AK, AA, or QQ. I am behind two of those, and chopping with one.

The river is straightforward. I was planning to raise it (because he'd have to fear the straight and would be unlikely to reraise me), though I admit might have just called. He checked through and there wasn't a lot I could do there. Betting out would have been silly, as I'd be raised by a better hand and he would bet almost any hand I could beat, and would sometimes bluff.

I posted this hand to get someone to convince me I should have raised, I suppose, and I am still unconvinced. You can make a case for 3 betting PF, but I see that mistake made by good players so often when out of position against a strong raiser and a strong caller. Then they flop top pair and get hammered when they get aggressive or whipsawed between two players that have them beaten on a flop like this. I could have CRed the flop, and that to me is the best place for a raise in this hand, for value and information, and to perhaps kick out the SB with a cap from the PF raiser. But again, the SB's play reeked of a flopped monster (until he donk folds the turn) and the PF raiser was quite a bit more likely to hold hands I was far behind than ones I was ahead of.

[QTip]

I've read through the responses here, and I really think this should be a 3 bet PF.

1. A raise from MP3 can mean a lot of things.

2. Any sb just calling a LP raise sucks.

[JJH3984]

First, eliminate low pockets. Anything below 99, and even 99 is a stretch. This guy does not raise low PPs, and certainly doesn't bet them out when 3 overcards fall facing two strong players. A9 no way he raises that, not in a million years. Now remember, the small blind called cold in front of me, indicating a very strong hand if he's willing to play it with a strong PF raiser out of position. Now let's look at what I am ahead of on the flop:

You can't have that good of a read on him after 200+ hands. Its just not possible. Thats only like 20 orbits. He could very well raise with small PP and you not know it. And if the SB had a very strong hand and understood position as well as you imply, he would raise.


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[Entity]

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What does raising gain for me on any street?

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money

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Glib, but quite possibly untrue. Is raising a +EV play against the players I am in against?

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How tight is "extremely" tight? If you're dealing with a 5% PFR and he's opening in MP3, 3-betting PF and leading this flop will generally get you more money.

Rob

[TiltsMcFabulous]

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What does raising gain for me on any street?

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money

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Glib, but quite possibly untrue. Is raising a +EV play against the players I am in against?

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How tight is "extremely" tight? If you're dealing with a 5% PFR and he's opening in MP3, 3-betting PF and leading this flop will generally get you more money.

Rob

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Had 456 hands on one, and he was under 14%, the other I had 220 on and he was 14%.

[Entity]

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What does raising gain for me on any street?

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money

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Glib, but quite possibly untrue. Is raising a +EV play against the players I am in against?

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How tight is "extremely" tight? If you're dealing with a 5% PFR and he's opening in MP3, 3-betting PF and leading this flop will generally get you more money.

Rob

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Had 456 hands on one, and he was under 14%, the other I had 220 on and he was 14%.

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PFR is more important than VPIP here. A 14% VPIP doesn't tell me much, but your hand is very likely to be the best hand preflop.

Rob

[TiltsMcFabulous]

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What does raising gain for me on any street?

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money

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Glib, but quite possibly untrue. Is raising a +EV play against the players I am in against?

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How tight is "extremely" tight? If you're dealing with a 5% PFR and he's opening in MP3, 3-betting PF and leading this flop will generally get you more money.

Rob

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Had 456 hands on one, and he was under 14%, the other I had 220 on and he was 14%.

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PFR is more important than VPIP here. A 14% VPIP doesn't tell me much, but your hand is very likely to be the best hand preflop.

Rob

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PFR 10 on SB and 11 on raiser.

[Entity]

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What does raising gain for me on any street?

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money

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Glib, but quite possibly untrue. Is raising a +EV play against the players I am in against?

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How tight is "extremely" tight? If you're dealing with a 5% PFR and he's opening in MP3, 3-betting PF and leading this flop will generally get you more money.

Rob

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Had 456 hands on one, and he was under 14%, the other I had 220 on and he was 14%.

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PFR is more important than VPIP here. A 14% VPIP doesn't tell me much, but your hand is very likely to be the best hand preflop.

Rob

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PFR 10 on SB and 11 on raiser.

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This is an incredibly easy 3-bet then. You've got the best hand WAY too often to be calling preflop and check-calling the flop, turn, and river.

An 11% PFR is opening with around 20% of his hands in MP3. For your edification, that's something like A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s+, 66+, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo+.

SB's coolcalling range is narrower, but is most likely in the neighborhood of hands like ATs, AJo, QJs, KQo, or a weak suited aces that he doesn't feel comfortable 3-betting against an MP3 open. I'd include hands like 66+ in there too.

Rob