Question with Opponents Pot Odds

[Hybrid_11]

This really is not a stat question as much as a theory question. We all know the main goal is to get are opponents to make unprofitable decisions usually relating to bad odds of hitting to what the pot is laying them. My question is what is the strategy when the pot is giving them the right odds wheter they know it or not. I have a hand as an example from a shorthanded game. It is checked all around to me on the flop with 30 dollars already in the pot or 10 sb. Now almost anybody is correctly calling the flop if i bet. Is it still right to throw out that flop bet?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

[defyodds]

with that flop I believe it is correct to bet. If someone is on a draw they may be getting the correct pot odds, but you cannot let them draw for free and get infinite pot odds. That situation will comes up a lot, you have to make them pay on the hands that they do not make. In that type of game I try to get in as much as possible preflop because those weak hands that don't hit anything on the flop will fold to a bet on the flop. If they have a draw they will make it some times and sometimes they will make two pair which still gives you outs. Its still gambling.

[Hybrid_11]

Ok thinking about it farther it is still a profitable bet wheter they have the odds to draw or not. I guess what I was trying to do is relate this to a subject that i read recently in HEPAP. Where sklanksy wrote that at times its right to just call with raising hands in order to not build up the pot and give opponents the right to correctly draw. I thought this hand could possibly be related to that idea but if not can maybe someone explain a little further on this concept that sklanksy wrote?

[Stephen H]

Actually, the main goal is to make money. Don't get *too* hung up on whether your opponenets have pot odds to call in limit; there's not generally much you can do about it. (In NL, it's your responsibility to bet enough to avoid that, right?) Pot odds may tell your opponenet when to call, but it doesn't tell you diddly about when to bet.
Look at your equity and see if you want them calling. Given 3 callers, let's give some reasonable drawing hands, right? (I'm not really basing this off of the action, but rather just some drawing hands you might be concerned that you're giving odds to)

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

ALL of these hands have odds to call you, heads up or 4 way. But you still have about 33% equity in the pot. That means for every SB added to the pot, you should get .33SBs. With 3 callers, you're putting 1 SB into the pot and getting 4*.33 = 1.32SBs back. Of course you should make this bet! I think as long as you're not up against two pair, trips, or the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], the bet should make you money.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
It is checked all around to me on the flop with 30 dollars already in the pot or 10 sb. Now almost anybody is correctly calling the flop if i bet. Is it still right to throw out that flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Theory of Poker covers this topic very nicely, I think. There are many situations in limit where you cannot bet enough to make it "unprofitable" for your opponent to call, yet betting is still correct. And calling is still correct for your opponent.

a) By betting, you make it less profitable for your opponent (hence, more profitable for you).

b) By not betting, you are essentially offering your opponent(s) infinite odds on the next card.

Stick to option a).

[Hybrid_11]

Alright thank you that sb return makes sense and of course i would always bet this and many hands in big pots. Like i said recently reading HEPAP got me thinking about that subject. Mainly about keeping the pot small at times so that you don't give the unknowledgeable opponents actuall correct odds post flop. Is there any time that its appropriate not to build a big pot or when you have enough equity the pot size does not really matter. I am thinking i took this concept the wrong way when reading, ill have to re-read this section again to try to fully comprehend the idea.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok thinking about it farther it is still a profitable bet wheter they have the odds to draw or not. I guess what I was trying to do is relate this to a subject that i read recently in HEPAP. Where sklanksy wrote that at times its right to just call with raising hands in order to not build up the pot and give opponents the right to correctly draw. I thought this hand could possibly be related to that idea but if not can maybe someone explain a little further on this concept that sklanksy wrote?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this is a little different than your OP. In your OP, you are asking on whether you should initiate the betting. In this post, you are asking whether you should call or raise a bet to you. These two topics are a bit different.

I think the general premise in calling when you should raise is that you do this in anticipation of getting that raise in on a later, more expensive, street. Raising on a later street makes it even less profitable for opponents to call than if you had done so on a cheap street; indeed, this play may it unprofitable for your opponent(s) to call when a cheap street raise would not, which is ideal.

That said, I very rarely make this play at low limit.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
We all know the main goal is to get are opponents to make unprofitable decisions usually relating to bad odds of hitting to what the pot is laying them.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, we don't all know that. Avoid "knowing" wrong things.

You want your opponents' FTOP mistakes to be larger than your FTOP mistakes. When you don't bet, you are probably making a big FTOP mistake.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
Mainly about keeping the pot small at times so that you don't give the unknowledgeable opponents actuall correct odds post flop. Is there any time that its appropriate not to build a big pot or when you have enough equity the pot size does not really matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose "it depends."

In general, if I think I am ahead, I'm betting and raising. If I think a flop raise will not get opponents out, I may choose to call a flop bet and plan to raise a safe turn card - I suppose having a strong, but somewhat vulnerable hand would also lend better to calling a flop bet. Skill ("might the bet to me mean that I am actually behind?"), aggression ("might I get three-bet if I raise the flop bet?"), the board ("likely flush/straight draw out there?"), and number of opponents play into this, as well.

Regarding checking behind when you are last to act and it's checked to you...(your OP): I do remember vaguely in HEFAP there being a scenario where it prescribes checking behind when it's checked to you (I think in the HEFAP scenario, the Hero has AA pre-flop on a board similar to the one you detailed). I cannot say that I understand why it recommends a check-behind; actually, this was a topic in another thread a few months ago. If my memory is correct, it seemed that many of the forum members, including lots of regular posters, disagreed with its advice and thought, at least when it comes to small stakes, betting was better.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We all know the main goal is to get are opponents to make unprofitable decisions usually relating to bad odds of hitting to what the pot is laying them.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, we don't all know that. Avoid "knowing" wrong things.

You want your opponents' FTOP mistakes to be larger than your FTOP mistakes. When you don't bet, you are probably making a big FTOP mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...well, my main goal certainly is having my opponents making unprofitable decisions. I don't see why this is "wrong".

That withstanding, yes, we want our opponent's mistakes to be greater than ours. I don't think the OP's statement and your's are mutually exclusive.

I am probably not understanding your post as you had intended....