could you lay this down

kowboy · #1 06-29-2005, 04:20 AM

Recent hand in a 1,2 NL at the MGM. I'll get to the nuts and bolts.
Hero is in seat 4 utg with KK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I raise to 12 and havent finished counting the chips from the last pot I raked. 5 seat calls, along with 6 seat and button.
Flop:Q,7,4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s
I check, 5 seat check, 6 seat folds, button checks.
Fourth street:2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, 5 seat moves all in for 120$
Button folds.
What do I do? I have been agonizing over this hand for a week and have come up with no clear answers. This was my thought process at the time. Didn't have much info on seat 5 but last time I saw him move in he had the nuts. My raise utg had to have told him I had a hand, I had been very tight in that spot and have only shown quality cards. I had him on 2 big cards or ace anything suited before we saw the flop. With 3 clubs on board I didnt like my hand as much as I did pre. If I had flopped the flush I would check it and make the move on 4th hoping the raiser would have a big pair(like I did.) and think i was full of [censored], or buying the pot. That is 2nd level thinking which i didnt know if he was capable of. I had an overpair and a club in my hand but would be killed to the made flush. Even if he had the ace of clubs move in his game I could still get snapped off. Wasnt getting even 2 to 1 for my money on this so I figured I could get the money in with a better situation. I looked at him and said that I would lay this down for him hoping he would show me his cards. He showed me KQ off with no club. I said nice hand sir and moved on. Unhappily I might add. All comments are sure welcome, feel free to berate my lay down, I have done it a lot. I did clock a 210$ win though. What would you have done and why?

thabadguy · #2 06-29-2005, 04:33 AM

Lead flop? Thin the field? Narrow his hand range?
I wouldnt check this flop.Its a raised pot , so he probably has big cards or a pair in the hole, and I most likely have outs. Im gonna call his all in, very quickly because i have the Kc
In an unraised pot, id lead flop and take it from there. probably fold turn to push.
Don't post results until later in future.

cero_z · #3 06-29-2005, 04:36 AM

Hi kowboy,

Could I? Yes. Would I? I highly doubt it. Bet the flop, and call when he raises all-in. Realize that the caliber of player in a 1-2 game is such that you should virtually never fold a KK overpair, and you usually should not give them credit for "realizing" anything.

Also, it's not a big deal, but this post belongs in the Small Stakes forum.

EDIT: Holy Crap! I didn't realize that you also had the Kc! With this overbet, you should discount the nut flush a lot. You should always call in this spot.

kowboy · #4 06-29-2005, 04:38 AM

Your right, the lead out on the flop was my best bet, but with 60$ in the pot I would have had to bet at least 30, and a check raise at that point would suck. Had 3 in behind me at the time.

kowboy · #5 06-29-2005, 04:41 AM

Thanks, caliber of players are better over here. Need to move up and all advice is welcome.

cero_z · #6 06-29-2005, 04:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but with 60$ in the pot I would have had to bet at least 30, and a check raise at that point would suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it wouldn't. You have a monster. Stop looking to lay down big hands in this game.

kowboy · #7 06-29-2005, 02:07 PM

Thanks for the help on this hand, hope to get into the same situation in the future. Might be an easier call.

muck_nutz · #8 06-29-2005, 02:15 PM

I don't think you should be focusing on if you should call or not. YOu caused that problem by not betting the flop. If somebody just happened to flop the nut flush in a small blind probably pretty shallow game its just going in. Otherwise be willing to fire it up on the flop and define your hand. With a pair and #2 flush draw you are a big dog to one hand. But once another card comes a lot of hands you were a favorite to are unlikely to give you any action and those which caught up will give you too much action.

This is a classic lack of proper action on earlier rounds causing loss of equity on later rounds.

NickPoker · #9 06-29-2005, 02:44 PM

You have to lead this flop with a 2/3 to pot size bet. The only hand you are completey screwed against is the nut flush or Pocket Aces with ace of clubs (no way anyone has that). I would still call the turn after making the mistake of checking the flop. The turn bet may have been made because of the weakness you showed on the flop.

iceman5 · #10 06-29-2005, 06:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Recent hand in a 1,2 NL at the MGM. I'll get to the nuts and bolts.
Hero is in seat 4 utg with KK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I raise to 12 and havent finished counting the chips from the last pot I raked. 5 seat calls, along with 6 seat and button.
Flop:Q,7,4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s
I check, 5 seat check, 6 seat folds, button checks.
Fourth street:2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, 5 seat moves all in for 120$
Button folds.
What do I do? I have been agonizing over this hand for a week and have come up with no clear answers. This was my thought process at the time. Didn't have much info on seat 5 but last time I saw him move in he had the nuts. My raise utg had to have told him I had a hand, I had been very tight in that spot and have only shown quality cards. I had him on 2 big cards or ace anything suited before we saw the flop. With 3 clubs on board I didnt like my hand as much as I did pre. If I had flopped the flush I would check it and make the move on 4th hoping the raiser would have a big pair(like I did.) and think i was full of [censored], or buying the pot. That is 2nd level thinking which i didnt know if he was capable of. I had an overpair and a club in my hand but would be killed to the made flush. Even if he had the ace of clubs move in his game I could still get snapped off. Wasnt getting even 2 to 1 for my money on this so I figured I could get the money in with a better situation. I looked at him and said that I would lay this down for him hoping he would show me his cards. He showed me KQ off with no club. I said nice hand sir and moved on. Unhappily I might add. All comments are sure welcome, feel free to berate my lay down, I have done it a lot. I did clock a 210$ win though. What would you have done and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your raise UTG may have told him you had a hand but your check on the flop AND turn told him you had zippo.