KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect. - Page 2

Crispy · #11 06-28-2005, 12:45 PM

Fiiine I will explain. I am sure most of you put your opponents on hands when you play. ALrighty, what am I afraid of trips, two pair, and sets. I don't fear QQ, 1010, or 99 why? It was not raised preflop, and if one of them has 99 and they stayed till the turn well I will just have to pay one of them off. SO that leave me with KJ for the straight, well thats unlikey because I hold 2 KK. That leaves me with drawing hands and 2 pair possibliites. I though that if one of them had a 10 they would at least try to isolate me on the flop and reraise, which they didn't. SO that left me with hands like 10J, QJ, and and maybe 89. In addition to this maybe Q10 but I will just have to pay this off. Ok, now studying the turn betting. I check, UTG bets, and this if followed by a reraise. So Q on the turn, reraise...I am thinking one of them has a Q. So I three bet. Those are my thoughts.

Crispy · #12 06-28-2005, 12:50 PM

I thought about doing that, but I was trying to adopt what sklansky was telling me about how i should be C/R the turn 60% of the time with both my best and not so good hands. I don't know however if UTG would have reraised me. I mean I bet into him again and he is left with top pair and open ended straight draw. I like to think that many people in this situation if they feared I held KK or AQ, or AA, or even AK, would rather just call me down. Thanks for the help.

Fat Nicky · #13 06-28-2005, 12:54 PM

by checking the turn, you made the hand that much more difficult to play. I don't hate the 3-bet, but I do dislike the check because you have no reason to believe someone will bet the turn for you. Having this check through costs money.

Also, after the turn 3-bet, I think you have to bet the river. Why were you scared of a 9?

Crispy · #14 06-28-2005, 12:59 PM

YOu know...I don't really know. If one of them did have Q10 i would have won anyway. I guess I should not have expected someone to have a 9. THank you for pointing this out to me.

stankphish · #15 06-28-2005, 12:59 PM

I dont think this is a very good spot for a C/R here b/c its not gonna get you heads up with UTG+1 which is what you want with only 1 pair and draws on the board. If you look at your position in the hand its you, utg, and mp1. You check,UTG bets like you want him to but then its on to MP1 and hes not going to fold for 1 bet considering you put him on a draw. In fact I think he raised so you would fold and he cleans up some of his outs. A C/R for value lets say if you had a set or something closer to the nuts would have been more appropriate.

stankphish · #16 06-28-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
by checking the turn, you made the hand that much more difficult to play. I don't hate the 3-bet, but I do dislike the check because you have no reason to believe someone will bet the turn for you. Having this check through costs money.

Also, after the turn 3-bet, I think you have to bet the river. Why were you scared of a 9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto

Crispy · #17 06-28-2005, 01:14 PM

I guess I can see why I should bet the turn because giving any free cards could really hurt me and I want to get value for my hand. WOuld my play be more appropriate if the turn card came a blank?

QTip · #18 06-28-2005, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
WOuld my play be more appropriate if the turn card came a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're talked about your opponents being "fishy". To try to put them on ranges of hands is quite difficult. To check to them with a nice hand is a bad idea. Get your money from the fish by betting. Don't get involved in fancy play.

Crispy · #19 06-28-2005, 01:21 PM

Has anybody read David Sklansky's Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players, because if you did you would know what I am talking about. pg 141-142, Fourth Street Concepts. Says you should frequently be checkraising the river with your good and bad hands alike because the more observant players will be afraid to bet against you on later hands because of fear of being checkraised, and the bad players who aren't paying attention will fall trap and will be frequenlty checkraised when you do have good hands. That way when you are on draws, you may even get free cards and get the best of both worlds. COmments?

Catt · #20 06-28-2005, 01:31 PM

I'm sure most have read HEPFAP but you're misapplying a concept as well as aplying it to the wrong game.

The board is drawy as hell. There's a really good chance that someone has a gutshot on this board if not an OESD. You really cannot check this turn with an overpair and a gutshot yourself -- having this get checked through would be an absolute disaster for you and you have no reason to believe that one of these guys is going to bet for you. You'll be much better off if you stop looking for places to make a fancy move and play the vast majority of your hands straightforwardly.