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#51
06-24-2005, 02:29 PM
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Re: fundemental short handed concept I\'m missing
The flop c/r allows worse hands to get off cheap, or play you off a better hand. Better hands don't have to 3-bet the flop either, they can just call then raise you later. Then you'll still be putting in at least 2 BB, and you won't even get a showdown.
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#52
06-24-2005, 02:37 PM
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Re: fundemental short handed concept I\'m missing
[ QUOTE ]
you're the pf three bettor and you hold 88. I check raise you on a KQx flop and then lead the turn. what do you do? what do you do if I just check call the flop? [/ QUOTE ] I'd say 90% of the time I'm folding to your turn bet
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#53
06-24-2005, 02:40 PM
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Re: fundemental short handed concept I\'m missing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand. [/ QUOTE ] you mean save you money when you have the worst hand? if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU? [/ QUOTE ] sure it saves money when you have the worst hand, but it costs you money when you have the best hand (he folds, when he would put more bets in the pot). You are also folding a hand on the turn that could also have up to 5 outs. So not only does it cost you money on your winners, it costs you the pot all the times you would have drawn out on the river. Also there will be times you fold the winner when he 3 bets you with 77 ont he flop (it might be rare, but it will still happen). When you factor all that together it WAAAAAAAY outweighs the 1BB you save by c/r to find out if your hand isnt any good [/ QUOTE ] You post gooooooooooooood. People should listen to this.
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#55
06-24-2005, 02:43 PM
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Re: fundemental short handed concept I\'m missing
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, where's Alobar is right? I thought that post summed it up, but people are still arguing. [/ QUOTE ] for the record I'm not arguing since I don't know enough to claim to be right. I'm just willing to take as many opinions as possible before formulating my plan for this weekend.
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#56
06-24-2005, 03:24 PM
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Re: fundemental short handed concept I\'m missing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand. [/ QUOTE ] you mean save you money when you have the worst hand? if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU? [/ QUOTE ] sure it saves money when you have the worst hand, but it costs you money when you have the best hand (he folds, when he would put more bets in the pot). You are also folding a hand on the turn that could also have up to 5 outs. So not only does it cost you money on your winners, it costs you the pot all the times you would have drawn out on the river. Also there will be times you fold the winner when he 3 bets you with 77 ont he flop (it might be rare, but it will still happen). When you factor all that together it WAAAAAAAY outweighs the 1BB you save by c/r to find out if your hand isnt any good [/ QUOTE ] Alobar is right. Surf
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#57
06-24-2005, 03:36 PM
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Re: fundemental short handed concept I\'m missing
1. Alobar is right.
2. The checkraise and fold the turn unimproved after a 3-bet line is extra bad with QJ. Folding the turn at 7-1 with five probable outs saves very little even if you are sure you are behind. If you must try this play (why?) save it for a hard-to-improve hand like TT. 3. The idea of checkraising to vary your play is sound but that does not mean you should vary your play with QJ. The time to run the bluff checkraise is with a hand like JT or a flush draw. Now when he makes a smart TAG fold with 88 you've really done something. If he's really weak so that you want to bluff a lot you can add hands like 77, AJ, and AT to the mix. But there is a backwards gap principle here. Don't be bluffing hands unless they are considerably worse than the best hand you expect him to fold. 4. Similarly you can play back with very good hands because you expect lots of merely good hands to make the mistake of calling you down. The thing to avoid is giving extra action with mediocre hands. He'll just exploit you by folding trash and eventually raising the good stuff.
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#58
06-24-2005, 07:26 PM
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Re: fundemental short handed concept I\'m missing
[ QUOTE ]
1. Alobar is right. 2. The checkraise and fold the turn unimproved after a 3-bet line is extra bad with QJ. Folding the turn at 7-1 with five probable outs saves very little even if you are sure you are behind. If you must try this play (why?) save it for a hard-to-improve hand like TT. 3. The idea of checkraising to vary your play is sound but that does not mean you should vary your play with QJ. The time to run the bluff checkraise is with a hand like JT or a flush draw. Now when he makes a smart TAG fold with 88 you've really done something. If he's really weak so that you want to bluff a lot you can add hands like 77, AJ, and AT to the mix. But there is a backwards gap principle here. Don't be bluffing hands unless they are considerably worse than the best hand you expect him to fold. 4. Similarly you can play back with very good hands because you expect lots of merely good hands to make the mistake of calling you down. The thing to avoid is giving extra action with mediocre hands. He'll just exploit you by folding trash and eventually raising the good stuff. [/ QUOTE ] Wow. Thanks. Most enlightening post I've read in a while.
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