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#1
06-24-2005, 09:15 AM
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which 4 high cards to play?
I play real mechanical, tight/weak almost. It allows me to get by in the .50/1.00 games, but I know I could be making more. I'm lost as to what high cards to play. I've heard any 4 cards 10 or higher, but is that too simple? Do I really wanna play 10 10 J K rainbow? I'm just not confidant with hands like this.
So what kind of high only cards do you play? 
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#2
06-24-2005, 10:18 AM
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Re: which 4 high cards to play?
Mike,
The reason you play any four cards higher than a 9 (or 10) is that when they win, there is a very good chance you won't be splitting the pot as much as other playable hands like A 2. Sure, from time to time you might split the nut straight with an "easy" board, but those high cards give you a nice opportunity to scoop the pot. And that is where you make your money. Dave
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#3
06-24-2005, 05:27 PM
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Re: which 4 high cards to play?
[ QUOTE ]
I've heard any 4 cards 10 or higher, but is that too simple? Do I really wanna play 10 10 J K rainbow? [/ QUOTE ] Mike - There’s no real answer for you except "it depends." Below are various "high-only" hands culled from my nine-handed no fold ‘em simulation data bank. Where do you want to draw the playability line? 15%? If so, do you want to say QQKKn is playable because it wins slightly more than 15% of the time in nine-handed no fold ‘em simulations, but JJKKn is not playable because it wins slightly less than 15%? Keep in mind that if I ran all those simulations again the numbers would be slightly different, due to randomness. JJKKn might well break the 15% barrier while QQKKn might drop below it. Do you want to drop the cut-off down to 11%? If so, TTJKn meets the standard. Do you want to consider scoops? If so, what would you make the cut-off for scoops? 10%? Would you then not play TTAAs because it doesn’t quite meet that standard? What’s white, what’s black and what’s grey? See the problem? Buzz 10000 runs each. Enjoy. hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....whole wins KKAAd.....794.....0.....1186.....19.80% JJAAd.....812.....0.....1112.....19.24% QQAAd.....784.....0.....1137.....19.21% JJAAd.....802.....0.....1114.....19.16% JJKKd.....668.....0.....1236.....19.04% QQKKd.....681.....0.....1182.....18.63% JJQQd.....661.....0.....1197.....18.58% TTKKd.....694.....0.....1156.....18.50% TTAAd.....800.....0.....1019.....18.19% KKAAs.....656.....0.....1091.....17.47% TTQQd.....612.....0.....1125.....17.37% QQKKs.....555.....0.....1119.....16.74% TTJJd.....639.....0.....1031.....16.70% QQAAs.....660.....0.....1008.....16.68% JJQQs.....538.....0.....1129.....16.67% 99KKd.....618.....0.....1045.....16.63% 99AAd.....765.....0.....868.....16.33% TTAAs.....672.....0.....931.....16.03% JJAAs.....646.....0.....956.....16.02% TTQQs.....541.....0.....1051.....15.92% 99QQd.....577.....0.....1004.....15.81% JJKKs.....511.....0.....1067.....15.78% TTKKs.....539.....0.....1024.....15.63% TTJJs.....561.....0.....992.....15.53% TJQKd.....665.....0.....875.....15.40% QQKKn.....407.....0.....1125.....15.32% JJKKn.....398.....0.....1100.....14.98% JJQQn.....448.....0.....1049.....14.97% 99KKs.....491.....0.....1000.....14.91% 99TTd.....574.....0.....886.....14.60% 99JJd.....542.....0.....916.....14.58% KKAAn.....506.....0.....929.....14.35% TJKKs.....539.....0.....894.....14.33% TTQQn.....415.....0.....1017.....14.32% QQAAn.....481.....0.....945.....14.26% TTJJn.....455.....0.....967.....14.22% 99QQs.....473.....0.....944.....14.17% TTKKn.....378.....0.....1023.....14.01% 99AAs.....574.....0.....827.....14.01% 88QQd.....548.....0.....836.....13.84% JJAAn.....503.....0.....868.....13.71% 99TTs.....510.....0.....858.....13.68% 9TJJd.....599.....0.....765.....13.64% TJQKs.....550.....0.....788.....13.38% TTAAn.....530.....0.....773.....13.33% JQKAs.....524.....0.....807.....13.31% 99TJd.....568.....0.....744.....13.12% 99TKd.....574.....0.....731.....13.05% 99TAd.....577.....0.....727.....13.04% TTKAs.....460.....0.....828.....12.88% 99TQd.....541.....0.....742.....12.83% JQKAs-.....514.....0.....768.....12.82% 99KKn.....334.....0.....928.....12.62% 99QQn.....353.....0.....908.....12.61% 99JJs.....480.....0.....775.....12.55% 2JQKd.....536.....0.....713.....12.49% 99TAs.....504.....0.....742.....12.46% 2QKKs.....388.....0.....856.....12.44% 2TQKd.....527.....0.....716.....12.43% 9TJAs.....573.....0.....658.....12.31% 99JJn.....393.....0.....836.....12.29% TTJQn.....424.....0.....804.....12.28% 99TJs.....497.....0.....722.....12.19% JQKAs=.....446.....0.....771.....12.17% 99TTn.....438.....0.....777.....12.15% 8899d.....555.....0.....655.....12.10% 99AAn.....439.....0.....762.....12.01% 77JJd.....487.....0.....712.....11.99% TKKAn.....306.....0.....889.....11.95% 88QQs.....460.....0.....734.....11.94% 99JQs.....467.....0.....722.....11.89% 99TQs.....486.....0.....703.....11.89% 99TKs.....486.....0.....695.....11.81% 9TJJs.....507.....0.....674.....11.81% 88JJs.....460.....0.....716.....11.76% 99JKs.....461.....0.....714.....11.75% TJJQn.....398.....0.....770.....11.68% 89TTd.....489.....0.....678.....11.67% 77TTd.....498.....0.....662.....11.60% 2QQKs-.....361.....0.....798.....11.59% 2QKKs-.....363.....0.....791.....11.54% 99TJs-.....487.....0.....665.....11.52% 2TJKd.....501.....0.....650.....11.51% 7799d.....535.....0.....606.....11.41% 9TKKn.....371.....0.....768.....11.39% 79TTd.....488.....0.....651.....11.39% 9TQQn.....388.....0.....750.....11.38% TTJKn.....390.....0.....743.....11.33% TJQKn.....409.....0.....721.....11.31% TJQAn.....416.....0.....710.....11.26% TTQKn.....341.....0.....783.....11.24% TJAAn.....503.....0.....621.....11.24% 77JJs.....452.....0.....669.....11.21% TTJAn.....377.....0.....742.....11.19% TJJKn.....389.....0.....728.....11.17% 7799s.....486.....0.....629.....11.15% 9JKKn.....326.....0.....787.....11.13% 88TTs.....481.....0.....627.....11.08% TTQAn.....331.....0.....775.....11.06% TQAAn.....454.....0.....650.....11.04% 8899s.....522.....0.....582.....11.04% 9TTQn.....392.....0.....711.....11.03% 9QKKn.....318.....0.....784.....11.02% TKAAn.....459.....0.....609.....11.02% 9JJQn.....355.....0.....744.....10.99% JQKAn.....352.....0.....745.....10.97% 9TJJn.....428.....0.....668.....10.96% 67JJd.....424.....9.....662.....10.95% 9JQQn.....369.....0.....723.....10.92% TJJAn.....351.....0.....735.....10.86% 66TTd.....458.....0.....628.....10.86% 88QQn.....356.....0.....723.....10.79% 99TJn.....429.....0.....639.....10.68% TKAAn.....459.....0.....609.....10.68% 9TJQn.....420.....0.....647.....10.67% 88JJn.....390.....0.....676.....10.66% 2JQKs.....420.....0.....646.....10.66% 99TQn.....381.....0.....684.....10.65% 9TQKn.....377.....0.....686.....10.63% 9TTJn.....404.....0.....657.....10.61% 6699d.....460.....0.....601.....10.61% TTKAn.....314.....0.....746.....10.60% TTKAn.....314.....0.....746.....10.60% 2TJKs.....427.....0.....633.....10.60% 88TTn.....439.....0.....618.....10.57% 9TAAn.....508.....0.....548.....10.56% 77TTs.....448.....0.....604.....10.52% 2TQKs.....407.....0.....629.....10.36% 9TJKn.....391.....0.....640.....10.31% 8899n.....461.....0.....569.....10.30% 9QQKn.....294.....0.....734.....10.28% 7799n.....486.....0.....542.....10.28% 99TKn.....361.....0.....666.....10.27% 9KKAn.....275.....0.....749.....10.24% 88KKn.....350.....0.....665.....10.15% 9JQKn.....339.....0.....673.....10.12% 9JJKn.....316.....0.....693.....10.09% 5599d.....418.....0.....589.....10.07% TJKAn.....361.....0.....644.....10.05% 8TJQn.....437.....0.....565.....10.02% 66TTs.....381.....0.....619.....10.00% 9TTKn.....365.....0.....630.....9.95% 6699s.....426.....0.....564.....9.90% 99JQn.....351.....0.....637.....9.88% 9QQAn.....290.....0.....697.....9.87% 77TTn.....393.....0.....593.....9.86% 9JAAn.....463.....0.....512.....9.75% 9TQAn.....385.....0.....578.....9.63% 9KAAn.....399.....0.....557.....9.56% 9JJAn.....298.....0.....652.....9.50% 9TJAn.....408.....0.....542.....9.50% 9QAAn.....430.....0.....520.....9.50% 89TJn.....444.....0.....506.....9.50% 9TTAn.....337.....0.....611.....9.48% 9TJAn.....415.....0.....531.....9.46% 9TKAn.....357.....0.....580.....9.37% 99JKn.....298.....0.....637.....9.35% 77JJn.....348.....0.....584.....9.32% 89TQn.....413.....0.....512.....9.25% 9JQAn.....329.....0.....590.....9.19% A99Tn.....338.....0.....576.....9.14% 99TAn.....338.....0.....576.....9.14% 6699n.....388.....0.....522.....9.10% 9JKAn.....303.....0.....598.....9.01% 99JAn.....286.....0.....603.....8.89% 9QKAn.....309.....0.....576.....8.85% 5599s.....342.....0.....543.....8.85% 99QKn.....267.....0.....615.....8.82% 5599n.....326.....0.....544.....8.70% 89JQn.....368.....0.....499.....8.67% AKKKs.....280.....0.....583.....8.63% 66TTn.....332.....0.....522.....8.54% 99QAn.....255.....0.....588.....8.43% 99KAn.....246.....0.....564.....8.10%
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#4
06-24-2005, 08:29 PM
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Re: which 4 high cards to play?
Awesome data mining, thanks a lot.
To the OP: As others have said, "it depends." You want to be in the game with hands that are going to be profitable against your select opponents, and that means good game selection. If you see that you have a high table average of players who see the flop, then the high hands might be good to play multi-way and hit a high-only flop. Making big flushes, houses, and straights can scoop a lot of money against players who chase two pair, running lows, and second-best high hands (sucker side of straights, baby flushes, etc). The key in Omaha/8 is game selection, moreso than any other game on the Internet (or so I personally believe). Make sure you get PTO and analyze the players you typically see on your regular tables before sitting down - it's not uncommon for me to wait 2-3 hours before actually getting in a game where I believe I am getting the absolute best of it!
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#6
06-24-2005, 09:43 PM
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Re: which 4 high cards to play?
[quote
JJAAd.....802.....0.....1114.....19.16% QQKKd.....681.....0.....1182.....18.63% [/ QUOTE ] These sims are awesome, thanks for posting. But they can be slightly misleading, i think, as in an actual game I think KKQQ plays close to as good as AAJJ. 1) The pots you win are likely to be bigger, as their are two other aces out for your opponents to like, meaning more players hence money in the pot 2) It is less likely that a low will be possible for a split since you'll be playing when a K,Q hits. 3) it's easier to get away from, since you tend to fold if you don't hit a K,Q or perhaps straight/flushdraw, whereas on a 37Q board your AAJJ may still be very good just some thoughts, g
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#8
06-25-2005, 03:51 PM
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Re: which 4 high cards to play?
Doc H says you should only play for the
high hand when you have one of the these two conditions, at least one pair AND one suited or doublesuited. So thats 1) in example: AhJhJs10c 2) in example: As10sKhJh According to the Doc random hands will win about 13% of the time if they stay in whereas these hands can be from 15%-25% Also, the value of the hand decreases a lot if there is only 3 high cards, and you should almost always fold if there are 2+ low cards on the board and you don't have a flush draw or trips and the value of your hand decreases if you have three of the same suit in your hand (just came up while I was playing so thought I would mention it)
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#10
06-26-2005, 05:54 AM
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Re: which 4 high cards to play?
[ QUOTE ]
These sims are awesome, thanks for posting. But they can be slightly misleading, i think, [/ QUOTE ] Hi Greg - Yes, they can be, and I haven't explained them very well. [ QUOTE ] as in an actual game I think KKQQ plays close to as good as AAJJ. [/ QUOTE ] Probably does play close to as well in a typical nine handed loose or semi-loose game. With either hand, you want to catch a flop with a nice fit to continue. Cappelletti, in his 2003 book, makes the suggestion of raising with any high-only hand after a high flop. Sounded good, so I tried it last week and took a bath. Now I'm back to wanting a king or queen (or open enced straight draw or better) on the flop with KKQQ and wanting an ace or jack on the flop with AAJJ to continue. (I like raising, but not without some kind of decent flop fit). [ QUOTE ] 1) The pots you win are likely to be bigger, as their are two other aces out for your opponents to like, meaning more players hence money in the pot [/ QUOTE ] A mixed bag. [ QUOTE ] 2) It is less likely that a low will be possible for a split since you'll be playing when a K,Q hits. [/ QUOTE ] Good point. [ QUOTE ] 3) it's easier to get away from, since you tend to fold if you don't hit a K,Q or perhaps straight/flushdraw, whereas on a 37Q board your AAJJ may still be very good [/ QUOTE ] Wow! I'm not continuing to a bet with AAJJ after a 37Q flop! and I'm certainly not going to bet that hand/flop in the typical loose or semi-loose game in which I play. Maybe you and Mike Cappelletti can make that tactic work for you but for me it's just too foolishly expensive. Buzz
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