The stop n' go

Redd · #1 06-23-2005, 01:24 AM

The SNG is a play that I almost never use, and now I'm trying to find appropriate situations to use it. Villain here is a SLA-A after a decent number of hands; the read is in accordance with the numbers. He's pretty solid, knows when to bet but plays a few too many hands preflop.

In this case, I didn't want to give him a free card in case he had clubs. I didn't really want to call him down in the smallish pot. So is it wise to spend 1BB to be reasonably certain you're behind, as opposed to spending 2BB to find out for sure?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 4 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

bottomset · #2 06-23-2005, 01:56 AM

i don't like the flop lead or the turn lead or the turn fold, all in all i don't like the postflop

Jaran · #3 06-23-2005, 02:06 AM

I'm not sure I like your line here. This looks like the classic WA/WB situation. What exactly did you hope to accomplish with your bets here? (I think writing out your reasons would be a good idea)

-Jaran

cold_cash · #4 06-23-2005, 02:29 AM

I think this is an interesting hand.

I don't really like the flop bet, although there probably can be an argument made for pressuring the small blind and getting him out of there. (I wouldn't be overly concerned about him in this instance though. The only hands we can protect against by facing him with two bets are getting pot-shorted by just calling one.)

Usually I would check and call or check and raise the flop.

Since you did stop and go I imagine your turn fold is okay, providing that there's no chance MP1 semi-bluffs twice in a row with a club draw, or raises twice in a row with a worse hand. If you're confident in those two things, okay; if not I would take a different line from the turn on. (Either check-calling the turn and betting the river, or just check-calling down.)

Vagrant · #5 06-23-2005, 03:02 AM

This wasnt a stop and go at all. It was a stop and quit. How semi-loose was he really? If he is in the 25-35 VpIp range I think the probability that the villan had you beat was less than the probaility that you had the best hand. There might be a case for you folding to a <25% VpIp, but still why would you stop and go against an aggressive player unless you thought you had the best hand and the villan had second best? This is just a stab at the pot at best. You would have had to reraise the turn for it to be a stop in go .

[ QUOTE ]
The SNG is a play that I almost never use, and now I'm trying to find appropriate situations to use it. Villain here is a SLA-A after a decent number of hands; the read is in accordance with the numbers. He's pretty solid, knows when to bet but plays a few too many hands preflop.

In this case, I didn't want to give him a free card in case he had clubs. I didn't really want to call him down in the smallish pot. So is it wise to spend 1BB to be reasonably certain you're behind, as opposed to spending 2BB to find out for sure?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 4 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

cold_cash · #6 06-23-2005, 03:08 AM

How does the villian's looseness figure into what our Hero's best play after the turn raise should be?

I would be worried less (i.e., not at all) about his VP$IP, and more about how aggressive he is/isn't.

And he told us why he stop and go'ed: To avoid giving a free card in case his hand was best. The villian raised and said AJ is no good, and our Hero surmised he wouldn't say that if he didn't really mean it, so he folded.

Vagrant · #7 06-23-2005, 03:22 AM

You havent noticed that looser players play a wider vairety of hands? Including a ton weaker than AJ. I am not saying AJ is a monster hand or anything, But it will be better than a majority of hands a 25-35 vpip player will play. Hence, reraising would be correct. I guess I am saying you shouldn't say you are stop and going unless you show strength on the turn. Hero's play did absolutely nothing to try to win the pot. Wanna know what went in the villans notebook? "Hero- Will fold to turn raise".

TomBrooks · #8 06-23-2005, 03:31 AM

- You didn't say what Villians PFR% is here. That would help to put him on a range of hands.

- Also, is this a tight table where MP1 can usually get a lot of folds with a raise? First in from MP at .5/1, some aggressive players will raise with any calling hand. This happens a lot more at 1/2 I think, but it could happen at .5/1 too.

- Especially absent a PFR% read, I would not automatically assume Villian had an ace - and if he did, that it outkicked my Jack. I would probably not bet out the turn though. Rather, I would likely go into call down mode after Villain's Flop Raise.

- I almost always take top pair to showdown HU on a non-scary board. This board has unlikely straight possibilities and a possible flush has not emerged yet.

cold_cash · #9 06-23-2005, 03:32 AM

So if I told you the villian in this hand has a VPIP of 50%, you can tell me what the correct play is once he raises the turn?

How does his looseness factor into that decision?

It seems to me the more important information is whether or not the villian will raise the turn with a worse hand, not whether or not he'll see the flop with one.

And yes, this is a stop and go.

@bsolute_luck · #10 06-23-2005, 05:47 AM

what do we want SB to fold here? you have TPGK. flush draw, he will probably stay regardless, and the board is uncoordinated otherwise. he already has improper odds to call with some random junk 2 card hand anyways. let him continue to call even if he wins on turn-rivered set/2pair, he was wrong to begin with.

you didn't want to call him down, but you spent 2BB already? if you had simply called down the entire time, you'd spend 2.5- big savings [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

2 options i see: c/r the flop or call him down. i don't see anything wrong with just calling down.