No Cap with AA

naphand · #1 06-21-2005, 02:56 AM

TABLE: Been sitting for about 50 hands, my image is probably reasonable. Nothing unusual has happened. TAG in UTG, LAG in CO the rest very mediocre.

Is this call with intention of raising the Flop anything less than standard?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Naphand is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP raises, CO calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, Naphand calls, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, Naphand raises...

After all the calls PF I get value by capping of course but, cannot force mistakes on the Flop or push anyone out with a bet. People will be correct to call with a lot of scratchy hands.

With SB 3-betting I can take overcalls PF and present the field with 2 cold on the Flop, giving my AA the best chance to win a decent pot. SB will call a Flop CR after 3-betting and probably will go to SD or at least see the River.

sthief09 · #2 06-21-2005, 03:03 AM

that is a unique situation. however, having put in 2 bets, the CO will, and is right to call 2 more bets. UTG should probably fold unless he's got a small pair in which case implied odds make it a call. if he's calling 2 more I think he'll call 3 more. and you're losing a ton of value from SB, MP, and CO who are almost certain to call drawing very very thin. I think not capping here is getting too fancy, and I think it's a big losing play. and I don't think you gain that much in deception when the tight guy calls 2 more from the bb and comes out firing on the flop. capping will also compel KQ and AJ to chase to the river with no outs because it'll be a 20 bet pot

flop raise is more interesting. this might be a good spot to wait for the turn. mediocre players are going to chase a gut shot here, and are justified in doing so. overcards might call for one more bet drawing to runner runner. but there are 3 people behind you so I think I take the lesser of 2 evils and raise the flop. if there were 2 behind you I'd wait for the turn and hope SB bets again.

Derek123 · #3 06-21-2005, 03:03 AM

The only time I can see just calling a 3-bet with AA is HU for deception. In a multiway pot I dont think you can make up the difference postflop in value lost by not capping preflop.

naphand · #4 06-21-2005, 03:57 AM

I'm not trying to be deceptive or FPS, I am trying to use my position on the PFR to make a Flop call much tougher for the 3 players behind me. The pot is already decent (by Flop) and my hand does not want a lot of opponents.

7ontheline · #5 06-21-2005, 04:04 AM

I agree that you lose value not capping it here. With all the raises and cold-calling going on, I don't think you're really going to be able to fold that many people out anywhere. Thus, you want a big pot with lots of opponents - your equity will be large compared to the rest of the players. Plus, I find that sometimes people don't respect the preflop capper in a multiway pot, figuring that you might just be capping for the heck of it. If the SB has a hand like KK or QQ, he'll probably bet the flop for you anyway and you can raise him anyway. The pot is already big enough that no one is going to fold much.

vinnox · #6 06-21-2005, 04:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
After all the calls PF I get value by capping of course but, cannot force mistakes on the Flop or push anyone out with a bet. People will be correct to call with a lot of scratchy hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even facing 2 cold on the flop they are getting 9:1 when you just call pf. If 2 people cold call the flop and sb calls then checks the turn, they're getting 11.5:1 on a turn bet. If you just call and nobody raises behind you then you raise the turn they are getting about 6.5:1. I think capping pf and waiting for the turn to raise is best here.

naphand · #7 06-21-2005, 05:35 AM

Maybe so, but it would be quite difficult to raise the Turn if no-one bets, which is quite likely with a PF cap. A flop check would be suspicious, and there is no way I can check the Turn again. If I cap PF SB will check the Flop with just about every hand he has that I beat.

By capping PF the pot is (potentially) going to be 20 SB, every hand in the world can call profitably in that spot. Are you suggesting a Mason-style Flop check? to stimulate a bet on the Turn?

This was not an aggressive table, not particularly loose either. Players werfe cold-calling 2 PF but post-flop was reasonably OK. I am not sure this kind of players typically counts pot odds, they are the peel 1 more for 1 bet types. I felt that showing them 2 bets on the Flop gave a much better chance of getting HU with SB (or at least 3-way with SB/CO). If other players fold incorrectly then so much the better surely?

Anders_G · #8 06-21-2005, 06:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After all the calls PF I get value by capping of course but, cannot force mistakes on the Flop or push anyone out with a bet. People will be correct to call with a lot of scratchy hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even facing 2 cold on the flop they are getting 9:1 when you just call pf. If 2 people cold call the flop and sb calls then checks the turn, they're getting 11.5:1 on a turn bet. If you just call and nobody raises behind you then you raise the turn they are getting about 6.5:1. I think capping pf and waiting for the turn to raise is best here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. The planned flop-raise does not protect your hand. The preflop-cap is for all the right reasons. If you think the players behind you will fold that will increase your chanses of winning the hand and if they call that's good too because your chanse of winning the pot is way bigger than 1/5.

helpmeout · #9 06-21-2005, 06:27 AM

Big mistake all you are doing by not capping is letting UTG and MP see the flop for cheaper.

People dont fold a piece of the flop when the pot is large, they'll call 2 with gutshots and bottom pairs.

Just cap preflop and expect your Aces to hold up a good amount of the time.

Mig · #10 06-21-2005, 07:13 AM

I really don't like it. AA is really not good multi-way, you have the opportunity to cap and at least kick UTG off the pot. Since MP is LAG he might call and he might not. I'm lag too and there is no way I would call a cap preflop for 2 more bet with my raising hand like KQ and some other. So you might kick him as well... Anyway just by kicking UTG you probably incrase your winning chance by some %.