Preflop raises in Loose/Passive games

Key West · #1 06-20-2005, 12:51 PM

Specifically, if you're in a LPG and there is a pre-flop raise from UTG, 6 or 7 callers and average LPPs in the blinds, you're on the button, what are the key differences in starting requirements versus what they would be if the pot had not been raised? You're getting virtually the same pot odds, and since players are tending to over-value their hands, UTG is just as likely to be raising with K9o as he is AA. And the overcalls are all pretty unrespecatable, as well. Additionally, your pot odds on the flop will be double what they'd have been if the pot hadn't been raised, so wouldn't your drawing hands gain value?

What if you're in middle position?

Also, what if you've just called the BB UTG with a hand like J9s (to pull an example from HEPFAP) and it's raised behind you? What about if it's raised directly behind you as opposed to several players behind you, and vice-versa? I know the answers to most of these questions in an average-skill game, but in a LPG I start to get confused.

Paxosmotic · #2 06-20-2005, 12:58 PM

Willing to open with K9o UTG would imply loose aggressive, not passive. If I had someone read as a loose passive and he opened UTG it's going to take a pretty strong hand for me to cold call with, dead weight or not. I'll generally respect a raise a bit more from a passive player. I'm certainly raising or folding if the raise is directly to my right.

ihardlyknowher · #3 06-20-2005, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Specifically, if you're in a LPG and there is a pre-flop raise from UTG, 6 or 7 callers and average LPPs in the blinds, you're on the button, what are the key differences in starting requirements versus what they would be if the pot had not been raised? You're getting virtually the same pot odds, and since players are tending to over-value their hands, UTG is just as likely to be raising with K9o as he is AA. And the overcalls are all pretty unrespecatable, as well. Additionally, your pot odds on the flop will be double what they'd have been if the pot hadn't been raised, so wouldn't your drawing hands gain value?

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Call with small to medium pocket pairs, small suited connectors, and maybe AQo. Raise with any big pocket pair, AKo, and any two suited broadways. Muck everything else.

crunchy1 · #4 06-20-2005, 01:19 PM

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Additionally, your pot odds on the flop will be double what they'd have been if the pot hadn't been raised, so wouldn't your drawing hands gain value?

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Don't be mislead here. Putting in 1 bet against 7 limpers is giving you the same odds as putting in 2 bets behind 7 cold-callers. 14-to-2 is the same as 7-to-1.

What's going likely be different is that the hands you will be facing will generally be slightly better holdings. With a bigger pot more people will be comitted to showdown and therefore be around on the river to pay off your draws. If they are truly loose passive you've probably got decent implied odds to play many draws given that you generally won't be paying much to see the turn/river cards but, will be able to collect multiple bets on those streets when you do hit.

Key West · #5 06-20-2005, 05:52 PM

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Willing to open with K9o UTG would imply loose aggressive, not passive.

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Yeah, you're right. I really just meant loose games in general. I've noticed they tend to fluctuate pretty often from passive to aggressive and back again, often during the same session.

Key West · #6 06-20-2005, 05:54 PM

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Call with small to medium pocket pairs, small suited connectors, and maybe AQo. Raise with any big pocket pair, AKo, and any two suited broadways. Muck everything else.

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Alright, thanks, so this would preclude playing hands like AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ, J9s, Axs, Kxs and Qxs?

Key West · #7 06-20-2005, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be mislead here. Putting in 1 bet against 7 limpers is giving you the same odds as putting in 2 bets behind 7 cold-callers. 14-to-2 is the same as 7-to-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's pre-flop, right? I mean that, on the flop, there will be twice as much money in the pot yet you only have to pay one small bet if there's no raise.

E.g., $5/10 Hold'em:

Preflop -

UTG raises.
Player 2 fold
Player 3 calls.
Player 4 calls.
Player 5 calls.
Player 6 folds
Cutoff calls.
Button calls.
SB folds.
BB calls.

That puts $75 in the pot. If the flop comes, BB bets and everyone calls, that's $110 in the pot when it's $5 to you, meaning the pot's giving you 110:5, or 22-to-one (enough to draw to a 1-outter almost.)

Now, in the same scenario, if UTG had not raised and had just called the BB, there would be only $40 in PF, then if the BB bets and everyone calls on the flop, there's now only $70 in the pot, making the pot odds 75:5 or 15:1 instead of 22:1.

This seems to say that your implied odds are much greater when someone in early position raises and there are many callers, so you should be playing more hands. Is that correct?

ihardlyknowher · #8 06-20-2005, 06:06 PM

J9s and Axs are calls here. My bad for leaving them out.

Key West · #9 06-20-2005, 06:25 PM

Ok, thanks. That's actually very helpful to me, however, my real underlying question is, why do the starting requirements change? I'm assuming you'd play all those other hands I mentioned if the raise hadn't occured. I'm probably not thinking this all the way through, but if your implied odds are so much better when there's a raise with many weak callers, why would you tighten up? Why wouldn't you, in fact, loosen up?

hellite · #10 06-20-2005, 07:22 PM

I hope this is not something new. regardless of how loose an early position raiser is, you should not be cold calling very often at all. By "not very often" I mean almost never. You should 3-bet premium holdings an folsd most others. with many cold callers in front of you you can loosen up but I would want a pocket pair or big suited/suited connector to continue.