General "lead out on the flop" question - Page 2

AZK · #11 06-19-2005, 01:57 AM

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Odds are he wont improve, but when he does it costs alot.

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By this quote, if you mean you give him a card which ends up winning the pot for him (i.e. he outdraws you) then yes it cost you a lot, it cost you the pot. If you mean this as in, you will lose a lot of money on this hand (more than you already put in) then this is a more important problem to fix and work on...

barongreenback · #12 06-19-2005, 05:36 AM

Good thread. I'm not sure on this either. If I was balancing my plays then I'd like to bet out with many hands because its the quickest and cheapest way to gain initiative and the pot. However, making consistent plays isn't always important.

Anyway I don't have a clear answer but here are some thoughts.
Hand 1.
I don't see how leading helps unless you're sure it represents a set or 98. Otherwise he can play the hand how he pleases and you have effectively 2 outs. A checkraise may keep him honest. Another similar option is to check call and lead an ok turn card. Whether folding is better depends on his overcard/big pair ratio and how often he'll check behind.

Hand 2.
Great bluffing flop. This is the paradox for me. If I want to bet when weak then what to do when I have something. You're more likely to be hurt by seeing the turn because of position and his likely pair so I agree check raising seems best in isolation although I've not been happy with that in the past. The key point is that I should probably be happy to win a small pot. Don't know how the hand plays out when he has AK. I'll likely get blown off it some of the time. OOP sucks.

James

Yeti · #13 06-19-2005, 08:25 AM

Hand 1 - I probably lead $35 here. I would also do this if the flop was J82. I may also do it with 88/22. It depends on a lot of things. I may even check fold the flop against a rock, but it's likely I'm going to fire a barrel.

Obviously if called or raised 90% of the time I'd give it up, especially if the board is rainbow.

Hand 2 - I would check call the flop and likely check the turn.

iceman5 · #14 06-19-2005, 09:40 AM

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Hand 1 - I probably lead $35 here. I would also do this if the flop was J82. I may also do it with 88/22. It depends on a lot of things. I may even check fold the flop against a rock, but it's likely I'm going to fire a barrel.

Obviously if called or raised 90% of the time I'd give it up, especially if the board is rainbow.

Hand 2 - I would check call the flop and likely check the turn.

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Can you explain why? What can he have that he will bet the turn again? AK, AA? Now he is seeing the turn AND river for the price he already paid.

Yeti · #15 06-19-2005, 10:49 AM

TPTK here is a nice hand, but not one I want to pay a huge pot with. I'm either ahead or wayyyy behind, and if I'm ahead, he probably has two outs.

I'm happy to check the turn and let him maybe bet his QQ/JJ again. If he checks behind I'll lead the river pretty hard, and see if he gets stubborn or makes a 'great call' with these hands.

I think checkraising at any point in this hand is pretty bad.

iceman5 · #16 06-19-2005, 11:19 AM

See, I cant balance your response and AZK's

Here is his

I said "Odds are he wont improve, but when he does it costs alot."

And then he said
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"By this quote, if you mean you give him a card which ends up winning the pot for him (i.e. he outdraws you) then yes it cost you a lot, it cost you the pot. If you mean this as in, you will lose a lot of money on this hand (more than you already put in) then this is a more important problem to fix and work on..."

Ok, so if I check call the flop and then the turn is a T or J and he happens to have TT or JJ, how in the world and I going see that coming and be able to not lose a sizeable chunk?

It rare that it happens, but when it does theres no way I can believe he hit a 2 outer nor do I believe he has KJ ot KT when raising from MP so I cant put him on 2 pair.

So you would check the turn to him, he would bet it again and then you still think your ahead. You cant fold after check/calling the flop.

Maybe this sceanrio has just hit me upside the head too often lately, I dont know.

Yeti · #17 06-19-2005, 11:37 AM

Maybe you'd prefer to lead the turn then.

Just because you check-call the flop doesn't mean you have to go bust. If he fires another two large barrels then you may want to consider the fact that your one pair is no longer good.

AZK · #18 06-19-2005, 12:50 PM

I don't understand why, maybe just the nature of the game, but I think the answer is different if you are playing full ring vs 6max. I think my answer holds up a little bit better if you are playing full ring, if you are playing 6max then a lot of the time I lead into preflop raisers...

Isaac Newton · #19 06-19-2005, 02:20 PM

1) If you are thinking of calling the raise p/f and check folding to a cont. bet with an overpair, you should fold p/f. If it takes a set for you to get involved, you will burn money to hit it and you will get no action when it comes.

2) Check raise is great vs.aggresive players who will bet %90 of the time. What do you do after they check and a straight or flush card comes on the turn or the board pairs? Check/fold? Decent players will pick up on this weak play immediately and they will raise into you on any scare card with nothing. You should lead out with TPTK and expect that your aggressive play will protect you from the bluff and almost any reraise means your hand is no good.

imported_bingobazza · #20 06-19-2005, 04:23 PM

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Wow, these are two situations I play completely different. Assuming villain isn't raising light and will very likely make a continuation bet on the flop, I check-raise hand 1 and check/call lead turn on hand 2. In the first hand, he is going to autobet overcards/pairs, but fold overs if you lead, so a check-raise picks up extra money from when he has overs, and when he calls/reraises your check-raise you can release. In the 2nd hand, I check/call, then lead because one of you is drawing to a few outs. He isn't going to fire again with QQ and you'll know if he has AA/KK/AK... I don't really see the logic of leading out first in either of these hands...could you elaborate on your reasons?

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I think we all play it differently. I think check raising will get you more trouble than necessary against a lot of decent players. What if he takes a free card, or calls a little check raise with overs? I lead for the pot and fold if he comes back at me. If he calls the flop bet, I slow down. What do you do on the turn if he smooth calls your flop check raise? The check raise needs to be more than a min check raise, or you're laying him 4/1 to a 25% chance of hitting an over by the river. You've made the pot bigger and he is in prime position to steal it off you with overs if you check the turn, and what else can you do? Bet into his possible overpair? You cant really call or make a bet on the turn, and you will hate a lot of turn cards. I try to win this with a pot bet on the flop, and then basicall give it up if I dont.

I think the check call/lead turn, (or check call/check raise against he right op) has some merit in the second example, but I also dont think theres much wrong with leading.

Bingo