Am i allowed to just fold this flop?

LoaferGee12 · #1 06-17-2005, 02:18 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, 

Assume a typical opponent, or is this completely read-dependent? FWIW, I raised, bet the turn and took the free showdown. The wholetime I just felt like it was spewing though. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] 

I really just don't see a typical opponent betting in to 3 oponents (1 of them a PF-raiser) with less than a King.

bottomset · #2 06-17-2005, 02:22 AM

very player dependent

it can be a call, or raise, though im not folding without a good reason though

Deamon2 · #3 06-17-2005, 02:23 AM

no. here is why - you're getting far good enough odds to chase 2 pair or a flush draw, and you very well could be ahead here right now. The only time you fold here is if your pattern mapper says that the turn and river will be 2's and you know BB is holding one. Here I would actually raise and shut down to a 3-bet from the BB. It helps clean your outs, and may make someone who has a flush draw make the mistake of folding.

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just to make things clear - even if you know he has a king you would at least call, and probably raise here. You're getting good enough odds to chase.

Kumubou · #4 06-17-2005, 02:41 AM

No, don't fold this -- you have odds to suck out. He needs exactly KQ or Q6 for you not to have odds to draw, and I doubt he has exactly that. Peel and reevaluate on the turn.

Would you want to raise for protection? Flush draws and OES draws are going nowhere fast, and you want weak queens and aces to stick around to pay you off (especially the aces). Mabybe to get rid of gutshots and the aformentioned hands, but I do not know just how much equity you are pissing away here one way or the other. I'll figure it out if this thread is still around tomorrow.

-K

Dave G. · #5 06-17-2005, 02:43 AM

The pot is big. I'm raising this to try and drive people out and possibly get myself a free card on the turn if I want it.

You may be behind here, but the pot is plenty big enough for you to try and hit two pair or your backdoor straight. If the turn doesn't help, check behind and take the free card, and hope to improve on the river. If you don't improve and you're bet into, I'd fold against a typical opponent.

Folding this flop is a pretty big mistake.

LoaferGee12 · #6 06-17-2005, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big. I'm raising this to try and drive people out and possibly get myself a free card on the turn if I want it.

You may be behind here, but the pot is plenty big enough for you to try and hit two pair or your backdoor straight. If the turn doesn't help, check behind and take the free card, and hope to improve on the river. If you don't improve and you're bet into, I'd fold against a typical opponent.

Folding this flop is a pretty big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, I like the free card on the turn. The reason I wanted to fold this flop is because I felt like I had to be the turn after doing that and was therefore an equity raise. I didn't even think of the fact that I could draw and take the free card on the turn.

fflyer · #7 06-17-2005, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big. I'm raising this to try and drive people out and possibly get myself a free card on the turn if I want it.

You may be behind here, but the pot is plenty big enough for you to try and hit two pair or your backdoor straight. If the turn doesn't help, check behind and take the free card, and hope to improve on the river. If you don't improve and you're bet into, I'd fold against a typical opponent.

Folding this flop is a pretty big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you hope to drive out by raising? You are looking to hit an Ace or a Queen on the turn, and I can't see any holdings that will improve to beat you if either of those cards fall. Just call and hope to improve.

Dave G. · #8 06-17-2005, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you hope to drive out by raising? You are looking to hit an Ace or a Queen on the turn, and I can't see any holdings that will improve to beat you if either of those cards fall. Just call and hope to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see plenty of hands I'd love to fold. I'd love to fold naked Ts and naked Js in case an A does come to eliminate straight possibilities. I'd also like to fold naked As incase we do hit runner-runner straight and I don't feel like chopping with him. I'm also interested in folding naked [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s before they get a sniff of a flush draw on the turn, and any [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s for the same reason. I'd like to fold someone holding 6x incase a third 6 comes on the turn. I'd also like to fold smaller pocket pairs that may peel one off on the turn if its only one bet (even though that would be incorrect) because them hitting my set screws me.

We can still make two pair and easily lose. The board is quite draw heavy. This is a situation where the pot is big enough to fight for, so you must try and protect against redraws. You can't do anything about someone holding 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s, but you can get rid of a lot of other hands that could turn into very big threats on the turn.

fflyer · #9 06-17-2005, 01:58 PM

Why worry about runner runner freak straights or sets making when I don't intend betting the turn unless my hand improves? The only hands I would be raising to shut out are hands that would improve even more than mine if an ace or queen fell. Besides, if we place villain with a King, is it not likely that he has a jack or ten to go with it? What else is he likely to be betting with in EP? Raising isn't going to shut him out.
Surely if you think you are behind at this point, there is no point worrying that other players will also improve to beat you with cards other than an ace or queen. You don't lose any more or less money if you end up behind two opponents rather than one.

Sinnister · #10 06-17-2005, 02:09 PM

Against a tight oppt you can fold. (I allow it) Against a loose aggr u can raise bet/fold the turn bet fold the river non threatening. It all depends on feel here standard play would be to fold pot isnt so big. Next hand

P.S u can peel one off