WSOP All-Time Player Rankings

[BlackAces]

[ QUOTE ]
Who is Jay Heimowitz? Not a name I've heard, seems quite accomplished though.

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the top players in the 80s. He made two final tables and has 6 top-15 finishes in the main event.

He was also a regular at the Mayfair Club (backgammon/bridge/poker club) in New York, along with others such as Erik Seidel, Dan Harrington, Howard Lederer and Steve Zolotow.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
Decent list, but TJ and Jesus need to go about 4 spots higher each, and Men the master and Amarillo need to drop significantly each, Men for the collusion, and Slim WAY further for not really having such a great record for how many events he has played.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already explained my thinking on Jesus. I think he is appropriately placed for now, but he will undoubtedly move up soon with some more final tables and perhaps another bracelet.

TJ is tough to rank. Only five bracelets, but he has 12 top 3 finishes and 4 final tables in the Championship event. TJ, Jesus and Heimowitz are all pretty close together. I can see an argument for TJ being the top out of those 3 players. I think I may switch TJ and Heimowitz.

Amarillo should probably be lower based on the era he has played in, which is basically all time. You got me there.

As for Men, lets not get into that. I'm basing it on tournament results, thats it. And his tournament results are amazing.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Forrest and flack need to go WAY higher, as do Ivey and Cunningham. Negreanu, a little higher

[/ QUOTE ]

Negreanu, Ivey and Cunningham have little claim to being higher than they are. If you compare Ivey to say, Mickey Appleman, it's not even close. The only thing this trio has going for them is the era they play in. However, they are all (obviously) much more talented than their rank, and will be WAY higher by the time their careers mature. Same goes for Juanda.

Forrest is an amazing player, and it's a shame he hasn't played in more events. But when you look at the body of his WSOP career (ditto Layne), it is significantly below the players above him. The only players I can see Forrest jumping in Scotty N and Amarillo.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerFink - did you give any regard to the types of bracelets that these players have won?

For instance, all of Hellmuth's bracelets are in Texas only - did such a reason factor into your decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured someone would ask that. No, I did not factor this into my decisions, for the simple reason that it would make doing this list about ten times more difficult if I had to factor in the game and field size for every bracelet. Yikes.

The only bracelets that are not equal are for seniors events and ladies events. And of course the championship counts more.

[PokerFink]

After taking some of these replys into consideration, I have revised my rankings a bit. Players who moved are in bold.

Rank Name Wins (Championships) Years of Bracelets

1 Phil Hellmuth Jr. 9 (1) 1989, 1992, 1993, 1993, 1993, 1997, 2001, 2003, 2003
2 Johnny Chan 9 (2) 1985, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1997, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2003
3 Doyle Brunson 9 (2) 1976, 1976, 1977, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1991, 1998, 2003
4 Stu Ungar 5 (3) 1980, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1997
5 Erik Seidel 7 1992, 1993, 1994, 1998, 2001, 2003, 2005
6 Johnny Moss 8 (3) 1970, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1979, 1981, 1988
7 Men "The Master" 6 1992, 1995, 1995, 1996, 2003, 2003
8 Berry Johnston 5 (1) 1983, 1986, 1990, 1995, 2001
9 Billy Baxter 7 1975, 1978, 1982, 1982, 1987, 1993, 2002
10 Chris Ferguson 5 (1) 2000, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2003
11 T.J. Cloutier 5 1987, 1994, 1994, 1998, 2004
12 Jay Heimowitz 5 1975, 1986, 1991, 1994, 2000
13 Tom McEvoy 4 (1) 1983, 1983, 1986, 1992
14 Huck Seed 4 (1) 1994, 1996, 2000, 2003
15 Bobby Baldwin 4 (1) 1977, 1977, 1978, 1979
16 Hamid Dastmalchi 3 (1) 1986, 1992, 1993
17 Scotty Nguyen 4 (1) 1997, 1998, 2001, 2001
18 Ted Forrest 5 1993, 1993, 1993, 2004, 2004
19 Layne Flack 5 1999, 2002, 2002, 2003, 2003
20 Amarillo Slim 4 (1) 1972, 1974, 1985, 1990
21 Gary Berland 5 1977, 1978, 1978, 1979, 1979
22 Dan Harrington 2 (1) 1995, 1995
23 Mickey Appleman 4 1980, 1992, 1995, 2003
24 Jack Keller 3 (1) 1984, 1984, 1993
25 Puggy Pearson 3 (1) 1973, 1973, 1973
26 Phil Ivy 4 2000, 2002, 2002, 2002
27 Artie Cobb 4 1983, 1987, 1991, 1998
28 Lakewood Louie 4 1978, 1979, 1979, 1980
29 Carlos Mortensen 2 (1) 2001, 2003
30 Dewey Tomko 3 1979, 1984, 1984
31 John Bonetti 3 1990, 1993, 1995
32 Sailor Roberts 2 (1) 1974, 1975
33 Jack Strauss 2 (1) 1973, 1982
34 Allen Cunningham 3 2001, 2002, 2005
35 Don Willians 3 1982, 1985, 1988
36 Eli Balas 3 1992, 1999, 2004
37 David Slansky 3 1982, 1982, 1983
38 John Cernuto 3 1996, 1997, 2002
39 Lyle Berman 3 1989, 1992, 1994
40 Perry Green 3 1976, 1977, 1979
41 Daniel Negreanu 3 1998, 2003, 2004
42 John Juanda 3 1998, 2003, 2003
43 Chau Giang 3 1993, 1998, 2004
44 David Chui 3 1996, 1998, 2000
45 Dr. Max Stern 3 1995, 1997, 1997
46 Eskimo Clark 3 1992, 1999, 2002
47 Hilbert Shirey 3 1987, 1995, 1995
48 Sam Mastrogiannis 3 1979, 1986, 1986
49 Mike Harthcock 3 1984, 1990, 1991

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
TJ is tough to rank. Only five bracelets,

[/ QUOTE ]

You idiot. He has SIX bracelets. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I guess he moves up a few more spots.

[Crispy86]

[ QUOTE ]
After taking some of these replys into consideration, I have revised my rankings a bit. Players who moved are in bold.

Rank Name Wins (Championships) Years of Bracelets

1 Phil Hellmuth Jr. 9 (1) 1989, 1992, 1993, 1993, 1993, 1997, 2001, 2003, 2003
2 Johnny Chan 9 (2) 1985, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1997, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2003
3 Doyle Brunson 9 (2) 1976, 1976, 1977, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1991, 1998, 2003
4 Stu Ungar 5 (3) 1980, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1997
5 Erik Seidel 7 1992, 1993, 1994, 1998, 2001, 2003, 2005
6 Johnny Moss 8 (3) 1970, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1979, 1981, 1988
7 Men "The Master" 6 1992, 1995, 1995, 1996, 2003, 2003
8 Berry Johnston 5 (1) 1983, 1986, 1990, 1995, 2001
9 Billy Baxter 7 1975, 1978, 1982, 1982, 1987, 1993, 2002
10 Chris Ferguson 5 (1) 2000, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2003
11 T.J. Cloutier 5 1987, 1994, 1994, 1998, 2004
12 Jay Heimowitz 5 1975, 1986, 1991, 1994, 2000

[/ QUOTE ]

TJ just won his 6th bracelet winning the $5000 No-Limit event no less.

[dogmeat]

Stuey won 3 MEs, the most of all-time (Moss won 2 and was voted best player in one).



The Hellmuth vs Chan debate is a good one, and I knew someone would bring it up. I think either one can be number one.

Consider that Hellmuth is the WSOP all time leader in cashes, all time leader in final tables (I believe), he shares the record for most wins in a year, and was the all time money leader until Raymer. He also beat Chan in 1989.

Chan's main argument for being over Hellmuth is that he has 2 world championships and a 2nd place (and a 7th), whereas Hellmuth has one world championship and a 5th. It's a very close argument, but I went with Phil.

I can't see Stuey being ahead of the nine-time bracelet winners. He is the most talented player of all time, but this list is not based on talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with much of your list. You have taken another list of winners, in multiple events, and tried to figure out which of those belong at the top. Sorry, but much of it is apples and oranges.

Certainly players like Amarillo Slim were good, but would have to be way down on the list. Moss deserves to be up very high, because the caliber of players at the time (even with smaller fields)was excellent. If you don't think he played tough fields, he even came in 7th place in 1985.........

Hellmuth over Chan? Wow, do I disagree.
Hellmuth over Stu? Wow, do I disagree.

You say this isn't based on talent? How do you know Stu was the best of all time? Because he won the ME three times - and because in total, he played much fewer events than Phil.

Reevaluate and call me in the morning, unless you list is simply who has accumulated the most bracelets and cash.............and if it is, we already know who tops those lists.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[Jinx230]

What's the deal - does he play in any of these events anymore?

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with much of your list. You have taken another list of winners, in multiple events, and tried to figure out which of those belong at the top. Sorry, but much of it is apples and oranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bunching all the players together based on their total bracelets (ie the 9's go 1-2-3, then Moss, then Baxter and Seiedel) would be comparing apples and oranges. I have tried to compare everyone together based on the whole body of their WSOP career, which is why certain players are grouped with other players who have more, or less, bracelets. I'm not sure why you don't understand what I did.

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly players like Amarillo Slim were good, but would have to be way down on the list. Moss deserves to be up very high, because the caliber of players at the time (even with smaller fields)was excellent. If you don't think he played tough fields, he even came in 7th place in 1985.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have Amarillo Slim at #20, the lowest for any player that won four braclets and a world championship. I have Moss at #6, which would qualify as very high on the list.

[ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth over Chan? Wow, do I disagree.
Hellmuth over Stu? Wow, do I disagree.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're free to disagree. Give me a good argument, I would love to debate it with you, it's why I made the list.

[ QUOTE ]
You say this isn't based on talent? How do you know Stu was the best of all time? Because he won the ME three times - and because in total, he played much fewer events than Phil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats why Stuey is the best card player of all time. He was also probably the best gin player of all time. But Phil has had a better CAREER at the WSOP than Stuey.

Consider this. Let's say we have two baseball players. Both play first base in the national league. Both are equal fielders. One player plays for five years, hits 40 home runs per year, drives in 100 runs per year, and bats .310. But after five years, he has a horrible injury and retires. The second baseball player plays for 20 years. He hits 25 home runs per year, drives in 85 runs per year, and hits .290.

The first player is undoubtedly more talented, as he had better numbers every year. But the second player had the better career. Player 2 retires as a member of the 500 HR club and is a borderline hall of famer, while the first player leaves everyone wondering "what could have been." Stuey is the first player. Hellmuth is the second.

Hellmuth, Chan and Doyle have all had CAREERS than Stuey.

I would bring up all the numbers, but you already know them.

Thats my argument. Care to to disagree?

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess he [TJ] moves up a few more spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a dillema.

Billy Baxter - 7 bracelets.
Jesus - 5 bracelets, 1 championship.
TJ - 6 bracelets.

Who goes where?

FWIW, The next player up the list is Berry Johnson, and none of those three players have a claim to being above him.