I Limped KJ UTG+1

Messy Harry · #1 06-17-2005, 11:15 AM

I have some thoughts about several aspects of my play in this hand, but I'm going to withhold them for now so I can see how they match up to any responses.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (12 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

itsmesteve · #2 06-17-2005, 11:38 AM

I'm not a big fan of this limp here, even if the table is loose, as more players tend to decrease the value of KJo. I don't really like the turn call either. MP3 calling two cold on the flop makes me a little nervous about not trying to push him out. The stop and go is a little disconcerting, as the BB could very well have a garbage 2 pr, straight, or flush draw. He could really be playing any two. I think raising here may allow us to knock out MP3 and potentially take a free showdown if we want. The river raise is a little confusing. If you are still ahead of BB now, why not raise the turn. I understand trying to knock out MP3 in case he's holding a bigger K, but no way is BB folding for one more back to him.

Firefly · #3 06-17-2005, 11:46 AM

PF is gay :P
While i don't like the limp, i don't think it's horrible to limp/raise/fold here. I doubt we are talking huge +EV here.

I really don't like the river raise. The ace has not improved your hand and it isn't likely for him to fold a better hand, i'd rather just see the showdown. Plus you really don't want to get 3-bet

Entity · #4 06-17-2005, 11:48 AM

I think the river raise is terrible unless you're withholding something very important about MP3 and BB.

MrEngenic · #5 06-17-2005, 12:12 PM

I don't limp KJo in EP.
I'm not sure what to make of the donkbet on turn, but many times it means that card helped him, or that he doesn't want to give you a free card if you are on a flush draw. It can't be the latter because then he wouldn't have bet the river. It could mean a very strong hand also like a set and he wants you to raise so he can 3-bet on an expensive street. You raise the river because you try to make MP3 fold a better hand fearing a flush or the A, right? I don't think he will fold a better hand in this spot, maybe KQ but that's about it. AK, KK, AA aren't folding. If you don't want to fold just call the river.

droolie · #6 06-17-2005, 12:15 PM

You should muck this pf. If you are at a really tight table you can try raising it. Limping is probably the worst thing to do with it. It plays poorly in multiway pots and will frequently be dominated. It will be a top pair kind of hand and as such you should either raise to limit the field or fold.

I like the flop but raise the turn. The donk bet stop and go is weird and probably means you are behind but the pot is big and you should invest an extra bet to drive out MP3 who might have at least four live outs agaist you. At bare minimum make him pay for his slim chance. Waiting until the river to raise is not good because he won't pay unless he has KK's beat. You should make him pay while he still thinks there's hope.

The river raise is not something I would be doing. The chances that MP3 has an A are pretty strong and if he has a pair under your KK's he won't call here. I'd just call and hope MP3 calls too.

Messy Harry · #7 06-17-2005, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have some thoughts about several aspects of my play in this hand, but I'm going to withhold them for now so I can see how they match up to any responses.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (12 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I limped it PF because I thought rasing it might be too aggro and there were still several yet to act. If it was raised and 3 bet back to me, I would have let it go. As it was, it came back to me raised with the blinds calling. I called the raise because I thought the other 2 limpers would call and the pot would be a decent size to see a flop with a semi-strong hand that is disguised a bit.

I raised the flop since I thought my hand might be best, but vulnerable. I figured BB for a K, but one that was weaker than mine. I was concerned that that MP3 (the PFR) called 2 cold. Since he didn't re-raise, I thought he might be on the heart draw or hanging around with an A.

When BB lead the turn, I thought he put me on a semibluff with a heart draw and didn't want to give me a free card. I don't know why I just called the bet. If I wanted to continue with the hand, I think I should have raised and then re-evaluated based on MP3's and BB's subsequent action. This was a mistake on my part. I think this is the type of post-flop mistake I make alot and is a good reason why I should avoid marginal hands OOP until I am better able to handle myself in tricky situations. I also think this hand is a good example of why I'm not ready to move up. Anyway...

When BB leads the river, which is an overcard that has now completed the flush, I now decide to enter the world of ultra-donks and represent the flush that I don't have. As one response said, BB can't just have a weaker K at this point. Yet somehow I don't just let it go. Honestly, as I look at the play, I think it's weak and embarrassing. Not only do I have MP3 behind me, who has been hanging around for something (most likely the flush draw or his Ace), but it's highly unlikely that BB is going to lay down his set or two pair or whatever for only one more bet on the river.

I think it's back to the drawing board for me [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I feel like I'm trying to play a bit above my ability right now and it's really taking a toll on my results. Thanks for your responses, which confirmed many things I was thinking.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot the results. BB turned over K8 for a flopped 2 pair.

Sinnister · #8 06-17-2005, 01:21 PM

KJ utg is a bad play for this exact reason. When u hit u are lost especially when facing a pf raise.