Let's chat about these - Page 2

crunchy1 · #11 06-17-2005, 10:17 AM

#1 - I Bet. I'm not slowing down against this opponent HU. I'm not giving free cards. The only way I'm getting extra action is if he hit a hand that he'll play back with - he'll probably call down with a small-pair-type-hand if he thinks I'm bluffing but, he won't bet this hand. I don't want to check and miss bets.

#2 - I check. My point of stealing here was to pick-up the blinds - I'm fine with winning a small pot. Getting an extra small bet on the flop was more than I would've hoped for when I raised PF. I can't be sure I've got the best hand. Getting check-raised on the turn would really suck and be a tough bet to call down even though there's a good chance I've got the best hand. I'm content to see a showdown here as cheap as possible. I'm calling a bet on the river where BB may stick one in with a smaller pair thinking it's for value.

#3 - Bet. I'm not making any extra bets by waiting until the river. Anyone with a decent club is going to call. IMO, anyone with the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would've already bet (though this is probably game/player dependent).

brettbrettr · #12 06-17-2005, 10:25 AM

Hand 1 I bet. If he checkraises I call and prob raise the river.

Hand 2 I bet and fold to a c/r.

Hand 3 I bet.

Am I missing something Owen? Hell, even if I don't have a hand I bet when checked to.

brettbrettr · #13 06-17-2005, 10:27 AM

This is really good:

[ QUOTE ]
#2 - I check. My point of stealing here was to pick-up the blinds - I'm fine with winning a small pot. Getting an extra small bet on the flop was more than I would've hoped for when I raised PF. I can't be sure I've got the best hand. Getting check-raised on the turn would really suck and be a tough bet to call down even though there's a good chance I've got the best hand. I'm content to see a showdown here as cheap as possible. I'm calling a bet on the river where BB may stick one in with a smaller pair thinking it's for value.

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QTip · #14 06-17-2005, 10:27 AM

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Hand 1 I bet. If he checkraises I call and prob raise the river.

Hand 2 I bet and fold to a c/r.

Hand 3 I bet.

Am I missing something Owen? Hell, even if I don't have a hand I bet when checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol! Me too [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway..read the explanation I put a couple of post up from HEPFAP.

I'm just keeping on track discussing things in HEPFAP and seeing how we apply the concepts in that book.

chief444 · #15 06-17-2005, 10:27 AM

Hand 3 I think as I said I think is a bet against the typical 2/4 opponents but a check against better opponents. I see smaller spades or even two pair type hands call and overcall here constantly.

Basically for all of these, the better the opponent(s) the more likely I am to check.

brettbrettr · #16 06-17-2005, 10:27 AM

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I think these are all pretty good plans....even at 2/4 party. Any comments?

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I disagree. This assumes your opponents won't call your bets with worse hands. I just don't think thats the case at all.

brettbrettr · #17 06-17-2005, 10:28 AM

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Basically for all of these, the better the opponent(s) the more likely I am to check.

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Exactly.

Malificent · #18 06-17-2005, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. There's a decent player (maybe a TAG) in the BB. You're MP3 with a red KK. Folded to you, you raise. Folded to the BB who calls.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, you bet , he calls

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, you ? and why?

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I bet, because I think I have the best hand here and until BB gives me a reason to be afraid, I want to keep betting.

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2. You hold A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the CO.

Folded to you and you raise. The BB 3 bets. You call.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets, you call.

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, you ? and why?

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I bet. It looks like the BB 3 bet may have been blind defense and the bet on the flop was an attempt to drive me off if I had been stealing with not a whole lot. If he checks to me on the turn, I'll bet and fold to a raise.

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3. You hold K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO. 3 limpers to you, you raise, folded to BB who calls. 5 to the flop for 10.5 sb.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to you, you bet, BB folds, 3 limpers call.

Turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to you, you ? and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I check here. I think I only get called by the As here and I want to see a showdown. Checking may induce a bluff from a crappier spade or a worse hand (top pair).

crunchy1 · #19 06-17-2005, 10:36 AM

If we're talking the Party 2/4...

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1. Check to induce bluff and save a bet if you're behind to better hand.
This should only be done if you think that the player will fold the turn if he a has a worse hand than you, but is capable of betting the river if you show weakness on the turn.

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I think there is a lot better chance that BB will call on the turn than take a shot on the river. I don't see any hands that a BB TAG only called out of the BB with that you're behind (except for possibly AA that he was slowplaying HU - I think it's pretty easy to discount this possibility). BB will gladly call with Ax on the turn and possibly on the river too - he's not betting these hands UI, IMO. Better yet he may try to check-raise-bluff the turn with a hand you're ahead. Betting the turn provides the possibility of gaining an extra bet when you're ahead. Checking the turn only loses bets when you're ahead. Probability says you're ahead here the larger percentage of the time. I think it's a pretty big mistake if you're not betting this hand 95%+ of the time.

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2. Check to avoid being check/raised. You do this to also induce a bet from your opponent on the river (you plan to call or bet if checked to). Also, he may be more inclined to now call a bet on the river even if he can't beat aces here.

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I'm assuming that we're up against the same TAG BB in this hand as well. This one I agree with the book on. I think it's a lot easier to define BB's range of hands here given that he 3-bet the steal raise PF. I think after we determine that range it's pretty obvious that we're in a WA/WB situation. I don't want to be checkraised here regardless of whether he's a tricky player or not. I'm content to see a showdown for 0-1 BBs.

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3. "If you bet, you may not get any calls. Plus, if the aces is out there, you save money. However, by checking you may induce a bluff, and if you don't induce a bluff, someone who may not have called the turn, may now call the river....If it's checked to you on 5th street, always bet; and, if you now get check/raised, always call unless you're sure your opponents will not raise without the nuts. Remember your check on 4th street may allow opponents to take shots at you when you bet on the river."

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I disagree again here. He says, "If you bet, you may not get any calls.". Well you know what, if I don't bet - I won't get any calls either! Party 2/4 players are not waiting until the river to bluff at a 4-card flush on the board. Checking here is again just missing bets. In addition to that giving a free card to someone with a set or 2-pair that has been scared to bet because of the monotone board is pretty disasterous.

crunchy1 · #20 06-17-2005, 10:47 AM

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2. You hold A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the CO[ QUOTE ]

I bet. It looks like the BB 3 bet may have been blind defense and the bet on the flop was an attempt to drive me off if I had been stealing with not a whole lot. If he checks to me on the turn, I'll bet and fold to a raise.

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Think about the range that BB will defend with here. Probably something like Ax/KQ-KTs/AA-77. There are plenty of hands you're ahead of in this range. I think that you will be folding the best hand possibly as much as 20% of the time that he checks the turn and you take a 'bet and fold to a raise' line.