Re: Charging the Flush Draw Thread

[Sasnak]

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I understand what is being said on this thread, but I am still confused about how to play a flush draw in limit.

If the pot is heads up it is still only correct to play for the flush if you think that the current odds and implied odds are greater than the chances of making the flush?

If the pot is multi-handed then it is correct to basically call to the river?

If I have a strong flush draw should I be raising if I think that I can keep the pot multi-way?

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Well if I have overcards to the board I'm more aggressive. If the board pairs I begin to caution up especially if I read a set on the flop and the Turn pairs the board.

It took some bashing of my dome by a few others here to get me to see I had 10 outs to a set, 1 to make Quads, and 9 outs to pair the board. Where the flush draw only had nine outs.

If I flop a low flush like XXs in the BB with lot's of raising going on, I'll call the whole way until the river then pop'em.

Right? Wrong? Dunno... But that's the way I do her. Anybody?

[Aaron W.]

You missed the points.

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1) Apparently you have concluded that if you are "charged too much" with your flush draw, you should fold
2) Others have concluded that it is correct always to play a flush draw passively to avoid being "charged"
3) Still others put in silly 3-bets and 4-bets on the flop (in situations where their winning chances are dubious) because they are deathly afraid of "failing to charge the flush draws." Ironically, the 3- and 4-bets are often better for the flush draws than the player making them.

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I think you're misunderstanding #3. He's referring to players who would raise/3-bet second pair and other mediocre hands because they suspected there was a flush draw out there. They did this without deference to the thought that they could actually be behind in the hand. You don't have that problem in your example.

This fallacy would be played out in the following hand:

A few limpers to Hero who limps with KTo on the button. Blinds call, and the flop comes AT6 with two hearts (Hero has no hearts). Small blind checks, big blind bets, and all the limpers call. Hero, thinking that at least one of them has a flush draw, raises to "charge the flush draw". SB folds and BB 3-bets. The all the limpers call. Hero raises again to "charge the flush draw".

I don't see this play at all around here.

[MrWookie47]

There's been quite a bit of good information so far in this thread, but I think I want to flesh out and combine a few points just for clarity.

1. On the flop, a nut flush draw has roughly 35% equity. Therefore, a flush draw makes money for every bet that goes into the pot if the pot is 3 handed or more. The current best hand is getting an even bigger share of whatever money goes in, but the player with the flush draw is getting paid, even if in the end it only turns out to be Sklansky bucks.

2. On the turn, a flush draw has roughly 16% equity. If the pot is six handed or more, the flush draw is making money for every bet that goes in (as is the current best hand). If the pot is shorter than 6 handed, however, the flush draw is no longer making money for each bet that goes in. Instead, the flush draw would prefer to see the river for as few bets as possible. However, calling in this situation is going to be +EV if the pot is large enough (read: virtually always). The best hand, in this situation, is indeed charging the flush draw. Even a single bet cuts down on the pot odds of the flush draw from infinite odds (giving a free card) to something less than that. The best hand makes more money in the long run by putting in as many bets as possible here, even if the flush draw has odds to call 4 BB cold. There is a lot of good information on this subject in the "Raising" section of ToP.

In general, if you are on a draw, calling is +EV if the pot odds are >= the odds of hitting your draw. Additionally, RAISING is +EV if the number of your opponents is >= the odds of hitting your draw. Finally, except for in very rare circumstances, the current best hand is always making money from each bet that goes into the pot, even if draws have odds to call, and even if draws have enough opponents to raise. In either case, the draw or the opponents are paying the best hand the lion's share of the money to continue in the hand.