What to do when a bad player at the table asks you about his play

[mockingbird]

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My response to this would be to ask why I should be responsible for educating, or even acting kindly toward this player. I would also ask you what limits you play. If I was playing some $100 max buy-in game, I could understand, and perhaps agree with what you are saying here. However, as a student, the money that this poor fool has brought to the poker table will hopefully become my tuition payment. According to you, I should give him truthful advice because he has not taken the time to read the books or make an effort to improve his game? I am not a professional, nor do I aspire to be, but I hardly look at the poker games in which I play as a sporting, friendly, or brotherly. I guess, when it comes down to it, I will do whatever is necessary, within the rules and without shooting angles, to win.


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We are all responsible for acting kindly whenever possible. If you don't instinctively know that then I think there is a piece of the normal human psyche that you are missing.

You don't sound like a very nice guy. And I don't believe that nice guys finish last.

[TomBrooks]

There is usually more than one correct way to play a hand. I would probably give him some suggestion, but advise him that different people would play it differently.

By the way, I would never fold 45 on a KK457 board and I might be raising with it; and I will always call with any club on a four club board for one bet on the river.

[TomBrooks]

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"Queens are very strong tonight."

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Stuff like this might be OK to share if your're in a generous mood. For instance, I got on a table the other day where the first couple of Qx hands I folded would have made monsters. I started playing all Q x>5 and did super with them. Would I share this with someone else while it was happening? Maybe, if he was a nice guy. I would be unlikely or possibly even unable to clue him in to when the QXs cooled off. It might take me a while to figure that out myself and it's not an exact science. This kind of stuff doesn't happen too often anyway, so it's probably not going to help anyone much anyway.

[Tommy Angelo]

The act of him asking you those questions forces you to lie in some way. In that sense, he attacked you. It is an inadvertant attack, but an invasion none nonetheless. You owe him nothing. No honesty, no answer, nothing.

"My question is this: What do you do when this player turns to you and asks, "Did I play that right?" "You would have called with the straight draw too, right? (Hand 1 above)" "I can't lay down a flush there right? (Hand 2)"

For those times when silence won't do, I deflect and end the conversation by saying, "That's a tough one."

Tommy

[Mens Rea]

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My response to this would be to ask why I should be responsible for educating, or even acting kindly toward this player. I would also ask you what limits you play. If I was playing some $100 max buy-in game, I could understand, and perhaps agree with what you are saying here. However, as a student, the money that this poor fool has brought to the poker table will hopefully become my tuition payment. According to you, I should give him truthful advice because he has not taken the time to read the books or make an effort to improve his game? I am not a professional, nor do I aspire to be, but I hardly look at the poker games in which I play as a sporting, friendly, or brotherly. I guess, when it comes down to it, I will do whatever is necessary, within the rules and without shooting angles, to win.


[/ QUOTE ]

We are all responsible for acting kindly whenever possible. If you don't instinctively know that then I think there is a piece of the normal human psyche that you are missing.

You don't sound like a very nice guy. And I don't believe that nice guys finish last.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there is a very large difference between acting kindly and bestowing advice that could potentially cost me a part of the advantage I have worked hard to acquire. Can you explain to me what is wrong with acting nicely, making this person comfortable, helping him enjoy his time - but at the same time refraining from giving him any useful advice? For example, you are playing in a highly competitive golf match for money. You notice your opponent has a swing flaw that he could easily correct. He asks, "Why am I slicing the ball?" What's wrong with telling him, "I'm not sure, sometimes the same thing happens to me?"

And you're right - I'm not a nice guy at the poker table. And I make no apologies for that fact.

[kiddj]

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"Queens are very strong tonight."

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Stuff like this might be OK to share if your're in a generous mood. For instance, I got on a table the other day where the first couple of Qx hands I folded would have made monsters. I started playing all Q x>5 and did super with them. Would I share this with someone else while it was happening? Maybe, if he was a nice guy. I would be unlikely or possibly even unable to clue him in to when the QXs cooled off. It might take me a while to figure that out myself and it's not an exact science. This kind of stuff doesn't happen too often anyway, so it's probably not going to help anyone much anyway.

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Is this sarcasm or do you really play hands because they are "hot"?

[TomBrooks]

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I got on a table the other day where the first couple of Qx hands I folded would have made monsters. I started playing all Q x>5 and did super with them.

[/ QUOTE ]Is this sarcasm or do you really play hands because they are "hot"?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi dj,
I was serious, that really did happen the other day; but it's very rare that I've been able to notice a streak and take advantage of it while it was still happening. Therefore, the chance that someone would ask my advice while I was playing a streak are tiny, but I could tell them about it post facto as an anecdote, which while not of much real help, is at least honest and makes for pleasant conversation.

[21times20]

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if you wver felt bad for lying to their faces.

I think the argument that those who do are bad people is assinine.

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my apologies, i am completely wrong here, obviously lying to people's faces is a sign of superior character if there ever was one

[21times20]

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The act of him asking you those questions forces you to lie in some way. In that sense, he attacked you. It is an inadvertant attack, but an invasion none nonetheless. You owe him nothing. No honesty, no answer, nothing.

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i don't see how this is even close to being the case, we are not talking about nuclear state secrets here, you haven't signed any sort of non-disclosure agreement, this guy is not a trial lawyer grilling you on the the stand backing you into a corner with a cleverly premeditated series of questions

aren't we talking about information that is pretty much considered common knowledge among any group of semi-serious poker players? i mean i really thought this information was readily available to anyone in a wide variety of media, whether they preferred to watch a dvd, read a book, or browse a web page on their computer. what exactly is the point of being so secretive about information that is anything but secret?

again i find myself coming to the conclusion people who have this kind of attitude are actually just very poor poker players who in most cases don't have any edge over their competition at all when they sit down at a poker table. so when they see the rare player who is actually worse than they are, they can't bear the thought of them possibly improving in the slightest, lest they be forced to return once again to their usual position in the table heirarchy, no matter how unlikely it is that a helpful tip or two will actually change the way someone plays over the next couple of hours

this is pretty much the only explanation i can come up with for the opinions of many of these posters, especially since i haven't seen one person who disagrees with my post address my thoughts on whether or not there is actually any positive expected value in lying, regardless of any moral implications. in case im wrong i would like to ask if anyone who feels the correct move here is to lie, actually wins on a consistent basis, even a moderate amount? i would be surprised if any of you actually put up consecutive winning months, much less average $500 a month or more in winnings

my personal guess is that the best performers among you are close to break even players with the majority of their poker income being derived from deposit bonuses, if said poker income exists at all

[Mens Rea]

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aren't we talking about information that is pretty much considered common knowledge among any group of semi-serious poker players? i mean i really thought this information was readily available to anyone in a wide variety of media, whether they preferred to watch a dvd, read a book, or browse a web page on their computer. what exactly is the point of being so secretive about information that is anything but secret?


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. So why is it my responsibility to clue this guy in? I'm not feeding him straight lies, I'm merely subtly reinforcing his incorrect beliefs. He can't buy the books and read them, like I and many others here did? Acting this way toward an opponent is almost certainly +EV. At the very least, I can expect him to play this way in the future, in pots that I am involved in, and can react accordingly.

To me, clueing this player in to his mistakes is the same as berating a bad player. Several 2+2 books have talked about this, and it is the general consensus that it is not a smart move to do anything that will cause a bad player to play better, or a non-thinking player to start thinking.

And not that it is any of your business, but I have been beating this game for thousands a month for the past two years. I am not a professional, nor do I desire to be, even assuming I have the talent, which I do not. However, I don't see how the skill or profitability of a player is even relevant here. Even if someone is a losing player, I fail to see how they would benefit by helping a player that is even worse.

Finally, I still think the argument that any tendency or behavior one exhibits at the poker table is in any way a reflection of their morality or 'goodness' as a person in life is a rediculous one. Look at Barry Greenstein. Obviously, a pretty decent human being. Do you think he stops to help the fishes he runs into at the early tables of his tournaments? Part of what makes poker fun for me is its competitive nature, and the fact that I am relying on no one but myself. Next time someone asks me whether they should invest in a certain stock or whether they have a case, I'll answer them with all honesty and respect. If they asked me if I would have called a preflop allin with A9o, I'll tell them that its always tough to lay down an ace.