good laydown?

[Schmed]

QQ in the BB

5 callers, I raise, all callers call

Flop

A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, 2 callers, all others fold,

Turn

7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I check, check, bet, I fold, call.

River

6

check,bet,fold

bettor flashes and A


thoughts

I bet the flop to see where I was at. 2 callers to the turn was not what I was hoping for.

On the turn I checked to see where I was at figuring at least one of them have an A. When the player bet it on the turn I knew I was beat and folded.

Even though I was right was my play correct?

[RockLobster]

Hi Schmed--

On the turn I checked to see where I was at figuring at least one of them have an A. When the player bet it on the turn I knew I was beat and folded.

I don't think this is healthy thinking. Many players will bet when checked to, whether they have an Ace or not.

I would bet the turn, then consider folding to a raise. Maybe this isn't any better? Assuming I bet the turn and get 1 caller, I end up with a tough river decision. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[WiredPair]

I agree with Rock. I would have bet the turn. He didn't re-raise you on the flop, so he most likely had an Ace (which he showed you) with a weak kicker or a nine with a good kicker. If you bet the turn, he may put you on AK/AQ and either called you or possibly even folded (unlikely) if he didn't have any other draws with his Ace.

If it was heads-up on the river I would probably check-call. If it was still three-way, I may fold assuming one of them had an Ace and I didn't improve.

[Don Quixote]

QQ in BB w/5 limpers sounds like a raise is in order. With 5 limpers, though, how many aces or kings might be out there just waiting for one to flop. If QQ just checks his BB, he can easily get away from them on the flop after an overcard comes.

Is this kind of thinking too weak? Maybe I have been beat too many times by flopped overcards. I anxiously await any thoughts on just calling QQ in this example and folding the flop if any action breaks out.

Don Quixote

[Schmed]

believe it or not the next time I was in the BB I got Q's again. I limped, the board came, AKx. I check folded, A10 took the pot with 2 pair.

It was my raise in the first hand that kept me in the pot. If I didn't raise, with 5 limpers, I am checking and folding that hand pretty much everytime with an A on the board. Too many people in the game I play will play Ax.

[Schmed]

"I don't think this is healthy thinking. Many players will bet when checked to, whether they have an Ace or not."

I know what you are saying. As in all things poker it's situation dependant. I don't claim any great knowledge of tells or anything but I watched each player carefully as they were calling my flop bet and that guy couldn't get to his chips fast enough to make that call. His mannerisms as he was calling that bet screamed to me that he had an A and I was drawing to two outs. On top of that I had the fact that I had a bunch of callers, most of who bailed on my flop bet, but two remained. I have to think that one out of those 5 had an A. In this game there is no way that any of them are laying down an A in that situation. It's profitable when you have AK but it kills with hands like this one.


I hate to ever fall in to a weak tight type of mode but I just really felt as if it was the smartest thing to do here.
I have been having a hard time with letting hands go even when I know I am beaten.

[Pirc Defense]

You must be prepared to laydown your pair when an overcard(s) hits the flop, and there are several opponents. Like you said, with five opponents, the chance that somebody has an Ace is very high, and drawing to two outs won't win you much money.

Since the flop is uncoordinated (rainbow and non-straight like) any callers most likely have an Ace or better. A pair of 10's or higher is unlikely as the pot was unraised to you. So if someone calls they probably have the Ace, or flopped two pair or trips, somewhat likely with five opponents seeing the flop, and are waiting to pop the turn. They won't fear slowplaying as much with this flop.

Though there are times when you have the best hand after this flop with five players, I don't believe it will happen often enough for play different than yours to show a profit.

[Bob T.]

This is very player dependent, but it is usually a good laydown. The only time that I would consider that this might have been a mistake, is if the two remaining players were aggressive to very aggressive, so the fact that they didn't raise either preflop, or on the flop might indicate the absence of top pair.

[ECondreras]

Hey Jim,

Since we play in the same type of games, and having faced this situation plenty of times myself, I will give you my thoughts.

With 5 limpers and you in the BB with QQ, what would we like to do? Raise and have all the K/weak kicker and Ace/weak kicker guys fold. But in the low limit games that we play, what happens? 1. You couldn't get a guy with a single ace (and sometimes king) to fold if you put a gun to their head and demanded it. Also, from my experience, almost all these low limit players will say "Hey, I've already got my $0.50 in there, I'm not letting it go to waste! Here's another $0.50!" If you were in early position, raising would have a much better chance of thinning the field, but still not as much as it should (again, any ace - any price players will call 2 bets cold).

The other reason for the raise is to get more money into the pot, as you have the best hand (but I am seeing more and more people limp with AA and KK). But in these loose, low limit games, the probability of QQ standing up against 5 or more opponents is low.

So with all that in my mind, and depending on the texture of the table, I mix it up. If there are 5 or more limpers to me in the BB, I will check. If there are 4 or fewer limpers, I will raise and hope for no overcards on the flop...and if there are, I will come out firing to get the guy holding A3 thinking that I have either AA or AK.

Overall, I think the strategy used in the $.50/$1 Party games is different from the $2/$4 to $5/$10 games. At least that is the impression that I get. Also, I could be completely wrong and about to get hammered by these guys, so I will shut up now!

[Rockfish]

There are two ways that I play this hand.

First, raise from the BB fully expecting all 5 to call. Now you are playing your QQ as a small pair hoping to hit a Q on the flop. About 50% of the time an A or a K will flop. Then you have to play good poker. Most of the time I will bet out and check fold the turn if it gets that far unless the callers are weak enough to be calling with 2nd or third pair. In that case I will bet the turn and check the river.

Second, you check the BB and play good poker afterwards. Bet out on the flop if there are no overcards, or perhaps check raise if you have an aggressive player in late position who will help you thin the field if all will check to him. If an A or K flops you can just check fold knowing that you got away from a hand that most others would get married to.

[nitpick]You can't check to see where you are at. Only betting will do that for you. [/nitpick]

Rockfish