POKER IS GAMBLING?

[Justin A]

An argument about whether poker is gambling or not is really just an argument about the definition of gambling. So stop already.

[ds914]

[ QUOTE ]
So how can poker be gambling in the long run??

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, it's gambling -- but it's gambling with an edge.

I think most people associate "gambling" with some sort of -EV activity. However, it's absolutely possible to "gamble" while having a mathematical advantage.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

ICE BURN

[Dave H.]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, it's gambling -- but it's gambling with an edge.

I think most people associate "gambling" with some sort of -EV activity. However, it's absolutely possible to "gamble" while having a mathematical advantage.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the above 100%. A good player will always (or MOST always) make +EV decisions. Almost any poker literature you can think of states that, to win, you need to continue to make those +EV decisions. However, please note that EV is "EXPECTED" value, and not "GUARANTEED" value. Mathematically, it can easily be proven that, after 1000 coin tosses, the probability is NOT 100% that "heads" will turn up at least once. By the same token, one would be a fool not to take an even bet on such an occurrence. That would be a +EV bet, but NOT a certainty, and therefore it is a gamble.

As another poster already stated, it's all in how you define the word. Unless you have a nuts hand, you always stand the chance of losing that hand. Statistically, there is a very minute chance that you will NEVER have the nuts hand eventually, but the uncertainty still exists. Statistically, there is a very small chance that you will NEVER get everyone to fold and thereby win the pot, but the uncertainty still exists.

Maybe this is splitting hairs, but precision is important to most of us.

[TMFS9]

[ QUOTE ]
An argument about whether poker is gambling or not is really just an argument about the definition of gambling. So stop already.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
VERB:
gam·bled , gam·bling , gam·bles
VERB:
intr.


To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest. poker?... yes ...... <font color="red"> </font> not really, outcome is certain in the long run
To play a game of chance for stakes. poker?... yes ....only a game of chance in the short run
To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit. poker?... yes ....again, no risk in the long run
To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.
VERB:
tr.

To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.
To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.

It appears to me that poker is gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I predict a lucrative career as a lawyer for you.

[JPNet]

It seems to me that many on the posters have touched on various parts of the answer, but not the entire answer.

First the question should be re-stated as, is poker gambling or skill.

The answer is that in the short term there is much more luck than skill. For instance, on 1 hand you can bet before the plop with AA, and end up losing to any number of hands by the river. That is bad luck. So betting with a good hand like AA is gambling, because the outcome is far from certain. Likewise, in any "short term" the likelyhood of being ahead or behind can be calculated. Note however that it is the likelyhood, or probability of being a winning, or losing player. The probabilty will be less than 1, the outcome is uncertain, so it is a gamble.

The longer the "long run" is, the less involvement luck has, and the more involvement skill has. The reason for this is that skill means, in part, betting when your expected value is positive, and passing when it is not. Over thousands of such decisions, if you constantly bet on +EV situations, the wins should start to accumulate.

This is how the casinos make their money. They play games where they have +EV, a probability edge. In the short term, someone can get lucky and win a big jackpot. In the long term, thousands of people making millions of bad decisions, to bet on -EV situations, make the casinos a lot of money.

An example often used is the coin flip. If you flip a coin, there are only 2 outcomes, and those outcomes are equally likely. If you bet $1 on heads and someone else bets $1 on tails, you have a 1:1 chance of winning and a $1 to $1 bet, so the bet is 0 EV and is neither a bad bet nor a good one. If the other person puts up $2 to your $1, you now have a +EV bet and you should take it. Note that nothing has changed in the probability of the coin flip. it is still a 50/50 proposition. The skill is in recognizing that the bet is a good one because you have and edge. The luck involved is that you can lose for a long time as that coin comes up tails over and over.