Overcards make my brain hurt (2 hands)

DavidC · #1 06-14-2005, 02:30 AM

Hand 1:

Villain's play is weird enough that I decided to look him up. 42 hands and he's 42/4 with little aggression in his PT numbers.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 7 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

---

Hand 2:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, SB calls, Hero folds.

River: (7.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

In rhetrospect, this board was way too co-ordinated, and the opponents too numerous, to bet for folding equity.

SB: 24 hands, 85% vpip, 4% pfr
BB: 28/75/0
Last: 22/68/4

irishpint · #2 06-14-2005, 02:34 AM

hand 1: you say he has very little aggression yet you call his turn and river bets with nothing? makes no sense to me. id fold EASY on the turn. what were you doing?

hand 2: i think its ok to bet this flop. you are one off the button and there were 2 checks to you, i'd bet trying to take down the pot there.

2+2 wannabe · #3 06-14-2005, 02:35 AM

hand 1 - you can probably fold this turn against aggression in a small pot with no specific reads (if he bet the flop then call down but he bet the turn)

hand 2 - don't bet this flop into 3 people - there are too many ways someone caught a piece. take the probable free card.

aK13 · #4 06-14-2005, 02:35 AM

Hand 1: Turn bet is weird. You can probably fold safely -- pot is pretty small, and his low aggressino probably means he's got you beat.

Hand 2: Flop bet is borderline, IMO. You might buy the button with it, and nobody has shown any aggression. I would lead with another bet on the turn, though. Checking the flop is probably a superior play, though.

I feel uncomfortable playing AJ hands, personally -_-.

ArturiusX · #5 06-14-2005, 02:53 AM

I love the flop bet in hand 2.

MrEngenic · #6 06-14-2005, 07:13 AM

Hand 1
An out of the blue bet into the preflop raiser on turn is often a bluff/semibluff. He wants you to fold, with a very strong hand like a 3 he would have checkraised. I usually raise the turn to make him fold his bluff/low pair and check behind on the river unless I improve. You want to see a showdown, you pay the same but you often gain a BB when you hit A or K on the river and he calls you raise on the turn. Many times you make a better hand like 44 to fold. A perfect play for this situation. Easy fold if 3-bet

Hand 2

I would bet the turn again here. The flop is full of draws, you could still be ahead. Check/fold unimproved on the river, sometimes check/call.

DavidC · #7 06-14-2005, 07:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
An out of the blue bet into the preflop raiser on turn is often a bluff/semibluff. He wants you to fold, with a very strong hand like a 3 he would have checkraised. I usually raise the turn to make him fold his bluff/low pair and check behind on the river unless I improve. You want to see a showdown, you pay the same but you often gain a BB when you hit A or K on the river and he calls you raise on the turn. Many times you make a better hand like 44 to fold. A perfect play for this situation. Easy fold if 3-bet

Hand 2

I would bet the turn again here. The flop is full of draws, you could still be ahead. Check/fold unimproved on the river, sometimes check/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

1)

That's something along the lines of what I was thinking, with the exception that the guy went to a lot of showdowns, and if he were bluffing, I figured giving him some cheap cards wouldn't hurt given the pot size.

2)

T9 has 14 outs to beat me, and it's not folding. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm willing to bet the turn again, but for some reason it doesn't feel right.

--Dave.

MrEngenic · #8 06-14-2005, 07:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1: you say he has very little aggression yet you call his turn and river bets with nothing? makes no sense to me. id fold EASY on the turn. what were you doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only 40 something hands, doesn't count for much.
I think your advice is horrible. A raise for a free showdown is FAR SUPERIOR to folding against all but the most predictable passive opponents. This is THE standard line, no two ways about it. You have to play the same with AA-TT though if it's going to work.

_bustedflush_ · #9 06-14-2005, 07:39 AM

I was rereading "overcards" in SSH last night. Here's what I get out of it

Hand 1: Board is unco-ordinated enough that villain either hit or did not hit. With a pot that small, turn fold makes sense.

Hand 2: Board is semi-coordinated, making other weak draws (gutshot, etc) a real possibility. Pot is a bit bigger. I like the flop bet and would have bet the turn as well against 2 opponents to try to take the pot there. The 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] wasn't gonna help too many people. A 9 on the river is obviously not what we're looking for and may be check-call or check-fold. A blank on the river would have been a bet.

jrz1972 · #10 06-14-2005, 08:37 AM

Hand 1: Fold the turn. The pot is way too small to chase when a passive fish comes out firing.

Hand 2: I would normally have bet this against two opponents, but given that you didn't, folding is right.