I do it the "Ray Zee" way...

[Ray Zee]

under the gun plays and mp plays with you calling and people behind you yet to act. where is the multiway pot. you do not have two decent suited crds. although they do look pretty.

you bet less than the pot. how can you expect that to be a bet that knocks out hands you do not want in.

this is not a hand you are looking to get action with as any big pot will not go to you.

[iceman5]

Im in the middle of the worst run of my life. 90% of it is because people keep outdrawing me. Even when i make a large raise, then chase their flush and while this is what you want, theyve been hitting them every time lately.

The reason I say this is to point out that someone with a nut flush draw will not fold to that raise which is exactly what you need to happen.

Whoever calls first is calling $37 with a $91 pot. Thats 2.5:1. The guys I play wont fold a nut flush draw to that raise. If SB calls, then UTG and the other guyd are getting even better odds.

Ive been making raises bigger than yours with 2 pair or a set and they still keep calling with their flush draw. Sometimes they even do it on a paired board.

I cant get anyone to fold a draw, so I doubt they will fold a nut draw to that raise.

[kagame]

how about raise preflop or fold?

[imported_piki]

Just a thought - you are a favourite to a flush draw and at least 50/50 to any pair higher than your 8. Any 2 pair or a set, you can outdraw. So your hand is looking quite pretty if you get resistance, but I'd still like to make people think twice before calling. I'd go for a pot bet.

-pix

[Garland]

They all folded.

This has sparked some interesting thought.

(a) Ray told me to consider folding preflop, and in an aggressive environment, where the blinds are more apt to raise, I would. However, I couldn't justify not calling on the button for a number of reasons. Admittedly, I am a total newbie at 6-max.

(b) Ray also mentioned that I didn't raise enough on the flop. This also sparked my curiosity. I thought it's possible I raised a bit too much. Ray (as well as others) mentioned that I want nut flush draw out. Why? If I can make that particular read, I am a favorite even if his nut flush draw contains a spot card above my 8:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1029685
pokenum -h jd 8d - ad 9d -- kd 8h 3d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kd 3d 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd 8d 526 53.13 464 46.87 0 0.00 0.531
Ad 9d 464 46.87 526 53.13 0 0.00 0.469

If the turn comes a blank, I can drive him off his draw with another shell probably even if he hits his spot card (I can probably read an offsuit A turn as a very bad card to bluff at).

In addition, I like to keep my bets and raises somewhat consistent. The raise I made is what I would do if I flopped something like top two or a set as I don't want to totally drive away the action. In this case I *want* action with my hand. In order to hide my true monsters from my monster draws, I believe I have to make my bets and raises the similar in similar situations.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm sure someone will point it out. Anyone have any starting hand advice for 6-max in (a) An aggressive table or (b) a passive one?

Thanks for everyone's thoughts,

Garland

[soah]

A couple comments.

In addition, I like to keep my bets and raises somewhat consistent. The raise I made is what I would do if I flopped something like top two or a set as I don't want to totally drive away the action.

There was another thread recently about this. Click here and then scroll way down to the end and read what cero_z wrote.

In this case I *want* action with my hand.

Not really. If someone sticks around with a pair of kings, then you win all of the pot half of the time. If everyone folds, then you win all of the pot all of the time.

As a final note, when playing six-max you need to adjust for the fact that you will be stealing more frequently than you would in a full game. If you try to bet and raise amounts that are likely to get action, then you are going to find that you are frequently getting action when you would rather just steal the pot. In this example, it looks like none of your opponents have a hand... instead of always raising some amount that you hope someone will call, wouldn't it be better to raise an amount that will usually be enough to steal the pot? That way you can pick up the pot all of the times that you haven't hit anything.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise I made is what I would do if I flopped something like top two or a set as I don't want to totally drive away the action. In this case I *want* action with my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said "In this case I *want* action," I meant when I have two pair or a set. In the case that a K happens to come along, if I have a read that I can blow him off when a blank turn appears, I shall do so.

[ QUOTE ]
In this example, it looks like none of your opponents have a hand... instead of always raising some amount that you hope someone will call, wouldn't it be better to raise an amount that will usually be enough to steal the pot? That way you can pick up the pot all of the times that you haven't hit anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're writing this thinking that I actually didn't hit a hand. I have a great hand against anything except a set or two pair (which I should find out about on the flop). I'm at least 50/50 vs. any other hand, and in fact I'm charging my opponent to draw to a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], non-8, non-J. In addition I have position. I think you may be undervaluing my hand.

Thanks so much for your thoughts about the 6-max game, soah. I know that is your main game, and I hope to learn more from you. I'm hoping your rough stretch is over and that your bankroll is recovering nicely.

Garland

[soah]

You have flopped a great draw... not a great hand. I think there is a pretty large distinction there. Also, while it's true that you have lots of outs against anything your opponent could hold, none of your outs are to the nuts. That's also an important factor.

On the flop you cannot even beat top pair yet... I would be happy just to win what is already in the pot.

I don't really feeling like I'm explaining myself very well... hopefully someone else can chime in.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
You have flopped a great draw... not a great hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

We may have a difference in semantics. When I say flopped a great hand, I'm taking everything to account, position and % vs the range of hands against my opponents. Not to be confused, I would certainly fold to a massive reraise on the flop by any of my opponents.

Note: I did not say I flopped a monster.

If the flop was 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and you have J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], you have flopped a great hand, and instead of thinking of drawing to a straight or flush like many people would think. I'm thinking in terms of making my opponent draw to non-straight or flush cards by pushing the flop hard.

Garland