TPTK is killing me. This hand made no sense to me. - Page 4

poboy · #31 06-12-2005, 04:19 PM

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I realize this, but I honestly cannot think of a better line, that is why I posted the hand. What do you suggest I do in this situation? I assume you are suggesting bet the turn. So tell me how much(then add up how much is in the pot), then suggest what a good river play would be. I really hate the way I played this hand, so if you have a better way I am all ears.

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A typical line for me would be:

preflop: $2. It's never too soon to start keeping the pot small.

flop ($5.25): $2. You're just charging him enough cover turn suckouts here. He has a maximum of 5 outs if he's behind, say an average of 4, worse than 10:1. You'll get calls from all kinds of crap.

turn ($9.25): $5. Not to be results-oriented, but he may or may not fold the 6 here. This bet is very hard for a dominated ace to fold. If raised and it's reasonable, I may call and check-fold the river; most worse hands will give you a free showdown. In accordance with my flop bet, I want to contain the payout to about $20. It's hard for big hands to slowplay here because you're betting too small for their tastes. In many ways, a minraise is the worst thing to see: it's too much for you to reraise but just calling doesn't show enough strength to intimidate a bluffer.

river ($19.25): $10, maybe more, maybe less, depending on reads and so on. This amount is very situational. I might bet $5 and call a raise to $15, or bet $15 and fold to a minraise. He pays $7 to get to the river. You've contributed about $12 (I think of the flop pot as mine) and therefore have about $18 left in your payout budget. The optimal way to spend it is still an unsolved mytery to me.

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This is very weak tight thinking IMO. You are talking about keeping the pot small because you may get sucked out on or because villian may have AT or TT? There are simply far more hands villian could have that hero is ahead of here. I'd bet very near or full pot here, 2/3 on a blank turn, 1/2 on the river. AT or TT very likely come over the top on the turn, and you can muck. AQ,AJ, and worse continue calling down and pay you off. Betting less than half on the flop is just asking for trouble in this hand and future hands. Betting in a manner in which your opponents can easily deduce how comfortable you are with your hand is -EV. JMO

MarzH05 · #32 06-12-2005, 10:00 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($47.55)
Hero ($49)
SB ($46)
BB ($48.75)
UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($41.71)
MP1 ($47.7)
MP2 ($49.6)
MP3 ($48.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, SB calls $2.25, 1 fold, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($6) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4.

Turn: ($14) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6, SB calls $6.

River: ($26) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12, SB calls $12.

Final Pot: $50

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jc Kh (two pair, jacks and tens).
SB has 7h 7c (two pair, tens and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $50.

Snag · #33 06-12-2005, 10:12 PM

I think $75 is perfect here. I don't see anyone calling much more than that unless they have the Jc. This guy did, but good players will lay down the Jc to 3x raise. $75 was good bet. Wellplayed.

ringwielder · #34 06-12-2005, 10:22 PM

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I am really having trouble with my TPTK hands. On one hand you dont want to inflate the pot, on the other hand you dont want them to draw out on you.

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Not checking the turn will help solve that problem IMO. If you're happy to call an all in bet on the river with that paired board, why be afraid of leading in on the turn?

The least you gain from it is info, and you would likely have folded him there and then. Instead you allowed a fish to hit his 5 outer for free and take your stack (and if there are 7 deadly sins of poker, i'm sure that's one of them - anyone got any others?).

So i'd bet the turn 3/4 pot (which was a nothing card anyway), and if he calls that then check the river and call a small bet. If he raises my turn bet then i fold.

ajmargarine · #35 06-12-2005, 11:12 PM

Yes, the betting is fine in this new hand, similar board. Of course, it's a completely different situation. In the first hand you were OOP and that was really your dilemna the whole hand. Here the guy is check/calling you the whole way when you have position on him. So it's pretty easy to throw some $ at the pot at each decision, and I think you threw ok bets each time. nh (My preference is 70% on the turn in this situation, and then make about that same bet again on the river, but yours if fine)

--aj

TreyOfLight · #36 06-13-2005, 05:19 AM

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Oh boy. You're holding one of the best hands in poker, and you're worrying about how to keep the pot small?

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Absolutely. You're making the (common) error of using preflop equity, twodimes-style, to extrapolate the correct play and ideal pot size. Preflop equities tell us that AKs is a nice hand to push preflop with, when circumstances and stack sizes permit it. It's dangerous to try and read anything else into them.

Postflop, AK has unique problems (especially out of position) that other best hands in poker do not. An obligation to hit the flop (or force your opponent out) is one of these; reverse implied odds are another. I'm going to bet any flop a lot of the time, and I want room left to maneuver after that, enough room that I can show strength but not pot-stick myself for 100BB.

Preflop raises have exponential consequences on later streets, and saving 1BB there gives me a lot of extra room on later streets, when the amounts at stake are much more than 1BB.

gulebjorn · #37 06-13-2005, 06:10 AM

Oh please.

First of all, you wanna play AK against one or two opponents. If you hit, you can be pretty sure that you have the best hand and you don't need room to maneuver, nor do you wanna give them any. If you miss, you take down the pot with a continuation bet and because of the PF raise, it's still a nice pot to win without contest. If you miss and cannot take it down on the flop, you're done with the hand and "maneuvering" has nothing to do with anything.

It's pretty easy actually. If you raise small, you will get more callers and get yourself in trouble postflop. It's the same with betting the turn. If you allow players to stick around, they will outdraw you. Protect your good hands by betting them strong and don't start outguessing yourself with this talk about preflop equity, extrapolate the correct play, reverse implied odds, exponential consequences blahblah... it's just nonsense.

TreyOfLight · #38 06-13-2005, 07:49 AM

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This is very weak tight thinking IMO. You are talking about keeping the pot small because you may get sucked out on or because villian may have AT or TT?

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Quite the opposite. I want to give worse hands near-correct odds to suck out on this drawless board. What worse hands can call down 3 large bets on that flop? I'm not talking about a terrible player or compulsive calling station, but reasonable hands, held by a reasonable player who isn't going to stack off with AQ.

I need worse hands to call here, to pay for the times that better ones call.

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There are simply far more hands villian could have that hero is ahead of here. I'd bet very near or full pot here, 2/3 on a blank turn, 1/2 on the river.

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That's ~150BB if you're called to the river. Are you saying you could fold if raised allin for 50 more? Or if minraised on the turn?

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Betting in a manner in which your opponents can easily deduce how comfortable you are with your hand is -EV. JMO

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One of the advantages of this line is that I can play it affordably with much worse hands than TPTK. I would start out the the same way with middle set.

fnord_too · #39 06-13-2005, 08:07 AM

Without a strong read you have to muck that river. When you have shown strength and make a blocking bet on the end with a scare card coming, and get raised, it is time to lay your hand down.

If I had to put villain on a hand at this point it would be TT, though A6s is also possible. The only time you can call here is if you think he bluffs in this spot over 1/3 of the time, which most players do not.

fnord_too · #40 06-13-2005, 08:15 AM

Just read the thread, Q6o? wow.

About leading the turn, absent any draws I still lead this turn almost always for two reasons:
If your opponent is weak, he may be calling with a weaker ace here and pay you off or not, it's fine either way.
A lot of times you miss the flop and fire a couple of shots. You have to do this with your good and great hands, too.