TPTK is killing me. This hand made no sense to me.

[TreyOfLight]

One problem with your play is that you charged him $5 to win a little over $40 ($5 + 6.25 + 30), paying >8:1 on a 4:1 shot. That's bad business.

If he folds a worse hand on the river every time, and you fold to his raise every time, he only makes $18 (i.e., less than 4:1) and the whole deal was +EV for you.

Obviously, the times he calls with a dominated ace improve your EV, while the times you fold to a bluff reduce it. I'll leave the math of that for others, because I always screw it up, but you will find it useful and profitable to start thinking about things this way and to develop a feel for how much you "should" be willing to pay off on suckouts.

[MarzH05]

[ QUOTE ]
One problem with your play is that you charged him $5 to win a little over $40 ($5 + 6.25 + 30), paying >8:1 on a 4:1 shot. That's bad business.

If he folds a worse hand on the river every time, and you fold to his raise every time, he only makes $18 (i.e., less than 4:1) and the whole deal was +EV for you.

Obviously, the times he calls with a dominated ace improve your EV, while the times you fold to a bluff reduce it. I'll leave the math of that for others, because I always screw it up, but you will find it useful and profitable to start thinking about things this way and to develop a feel for how much you "should" be willing to pay off on suckouts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize this, but I honestly cannot think of a better line, that is why I posted the hand. What do you suggest I do in this situation? I assume you are suggesting bet the turn. So tell me how much(then add up how much is in the pot), then suggest what a good river play would be. I really hate the way I played this hand, so if you have a better way I am all ears.

[jtr]

You played it fine -- your basic principle of not wanting to bloat the pot with a mediocre hand out of position is valid. The only mistake, as far as I can see, is calling the river raise. What range of hands do you think he's doing that with, in the $50 game?

[salloch]

I don't like the turn check at all. you raised pf, got called, bet the flop, got called, the turn bricks and you check?

I would bet at least $12 here. If you get called or raised, then shut it down.

If you are scared on the turn (which is okay), then the hand is over for you.

-salloch

[MarzH05]

[ QUOTE ]
You played it fine -- your basic principle of not wanting to bloat the pot with a mediocre hand out of position is valid. The only mistake, as far as I can see, is calling the river raise. What range of hands do you think he's doing that with, in the $50 game?

[/ QUOTE ]


The only hands that I thought could beat me based on preflop betting to river was A10 or 1010. The way it was played out, I really didnt think it was either one of these. Any slight variation in the betting and I would have layed this hand down, but dont you guys ever call a raise like this on gut feeling, or do you fold to every reraise without the nuts by the river? My reasoning at the time was that he was either making a move on me and MHIG, or he had a 6. The problem I have with these hands is that I do not know what line to take to best be able to assess this situation. The way I played it, what do you put him on by the river, honestly?

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
I realize this, but I honestly cannot think of a better line, that is why I posted the hand. What do you suggest I do in this situation? I assume you are suggesting bet the turn. So tell me how much(then add up how much is in the pot), then suggest what a good river play would be. I really hate the way I played this hand, so if you have a better way I am all ears.

[/ QUOTE ]

A typical line for me would be:

preflop: $2. It's never too soon to start keeping the pot small.

flop ($5.25): $2. You're just charging him enough cover turn suckouts here. He has a maximum of 5 outs if he's behind, say an average of 4, worse than 10:1. You'll get calls from all kinds of crap.

turn ($9.25): $5. Not to be results-oriented, but he may or may not fold the 6 here. This bet is very hard for a dominated ace to fold. If raised and it's reasonable, I may call and check-fold the river; most worse hands will give you a free showdown. In accordance with my flop bet, I want to contain the payout to about $20. It's hard for big hands to slowplay here because you're betting too small for their tastes. In many ways, a minraise is the worst thing to see: it's too much for you to reraise but just calling doesn't show enough strength to intimidate a bluffer.

river ($19.25): $10, maybe more, maybe less, depending on reads and so on. This amount is very situational. I might bet $5 and call a raise to $15, or bet $15 and fold to a minraise. He pays $7 to get to the river. You've contributed about $12 (I think of the flop pot as mine) and therefore have about $18 left in your payout budget. The optimal way to spend it is still an unsolved mytery to me.

[ajmargarine]

Your preflop raise said you have a big hand. His call says nothing, because alot of players will call late, headsup, and try to ouplay you for the pot. ie. u miss ur flop, he throws a pot sized bet at you, and you pretty much have to fold. Or he might be a moron, or he may have a big hand, who knows.

Your check on the turn screams that you are weak, and that your first bet was a continuation bet. You have TPTK and there are only a few hands that beat you right now. I don't understand this talk of not bloating the pot. Bet 70% of the pot on both the flop and turn, and make him pay to suck out on you. If he's got ace-ten or ten-ten, well, you're beat and there's nothing you can do about it. But you'll be paid off by disbelieving AQ, AJ, Ax, JJ, QQ's etc.

Bloating the pot?!?

--aj

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
do you call this?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

I'd play it like this:

Overbet the pot on the flop(say $7). It's far more aggressive and if Villain then shows aggression at any point you can safely say you're beat.

I'd bet small on the turn (say $5-7 again). The turn is a great place to get information and you're getting value from hands you dominate.

Not sure what the river bet is meant to accomplish. After previous streets it's begging to be raised by either a good or bad hand.

If you want a cheap showdown, check it, after previous streets a monster is going to put out a small value bet, as is a hand like AQ or AJ. If you think you're ahead and want value, bet the pot. A lot of hands will make a crying call here after the turn check. For another $8 you can also fold very confidently if you're surprised by a reraise.

After the turn check this 1/2 pot business is just asking for trouble imo.

[gulebjorn]

Wow, lots of different lines here.

Here's what I think: flop bet is good, make the turn 12$, if he calls, I'm pretty much sure I'm beat, but I'd try to block the river for another 12$ or so. The way the hand was played out here, I'm folding on the river.

I think a set would raise the flop or turn. You could get away from it there. I also don't see AT just calling it down to the river.

I'll try to anwer some other posters as well, discussion on this is welcome.

[ QUOTE ]
Half-potting the turn puts 65BB in the pot on the river, and (if I was MP) a check there would look to me like exactly what it is -- an out of position player who just woke up and realized the pot is bigger than his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO the check on the turn is saying: please, bet strong and take this pot away from me, because your flop call really scared me and I only have top pair, top kicker and that always gets cracked when people call me down with it.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious to know what the turn bet is meant to accomplish.

[/ QUOTE ]
To prevent exactly this hand from happening. You wanna charge anyone who thinks you are making a continuation bet, or just bluffing, who's drawing to his middle or bottom pair with maybe a backdoor draw, or looking to pair his kicker with a weak ace...

Betting the turn might give you the information you need right there, instead of making this harder than it already is on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
The only hands that I thought could beat me based on preflop betting to river was A10 or 1010. The way it was played out, I really didnt think it was either one of these.

[/ QUOTE ]
Another argument for betting the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
but dont you guys ever call a raise like this on gut feeling, or do you fold to every reraise without the nuts by the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
Gut feeling will lose your stack more often than not IMO. And I do fold to a re-raise when I'm holding TPTK, because I bet it strong all the way to the river. That way, if I'm raised, I can be sure I'm beat.

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: $2. It's never too soon to start keeping the pot small.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh boy. You're holding one of the best hands in poker, and you're worrying about how to keep the pot small?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this talk of not bloating the pot. Bet 70% of the pot on both the flop and turn, and make him pay to suck out on you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we need more advice like this in here.

Comments are welcome.

[dibbs]

With no information on this guy it's much harder. I'd bet closer to the pot on flop, yea I know you're close but make it 6 or 6.5 or somethin. As for the turn, I dunno. Its much harder to control the pot size on the turn, your check sends weakness but if you bet and he still calls you're making a massive pot OOP. I check the turn, sometimes bet it, depends on "feel" I guess. River you have to bet much larger or think forever then check, a small bet like that asks someone to take it away from you. A 12$ bet or so feels right, problem is when he raises.... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]. Tough hand.