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  #11  
Old 05-20-2003, 10:23 AM
fluffhead fluffhead is offline
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Default Re: Thoughts on problem starters...

Rock...

Starting with AJo, this is what I think (especially since 99% of the time I get it is utg or utg+1)...
"wow, this is my most hated hand....but, on the other hand,
I'm so sick of seeing T3o, J5o, K2o, so this looks soooooo
damn pretty..."

Well, at this time, I think I've lost much more than I've won with AJo in early pos that I've forced myself to muck it. It's obviously a raise or muck in early position. But if you raise preflop (as I used to do), like you said, you'll be driving out weaker aces, but not aces that can beat you. What happens if you get 3-bet? How do you proceed when a lone K or Q falls on the flop? What if an A falls and you run into resistance when you bet?

I think late position it's worth a raise against fewer opponents, but in a multiway pot, I think AJo loses a lot of its value ...

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  #12  
Old 05-20-2003, 10:47 AM
Homer Homer is offline
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Default Re: Thoughts on problem starters...

With each of these hands I always fold to a legitimate raise. If a LMP or LP player raises then I either reraise or fold depending on the open-raising standards of my opponent from that position. Here is what I do in unraised pots with each of these hands (along with my thoughts when I receive the hand):

1) AJo - "I used to think you were almost as good as AQo...now I know better."

a) EP

-- Limp unless the game is super tough, in which case fold

b) MP

-- If first in, open-raise
-- If two or more limpers, limp
-- If one limper, limp unless a raise stands a good chance of getting the hand heads-up

c) LP

-- If first in, open-raise
-- If two or more limpers, usually limp. Raise if doing so will buy the button (if in CO) and/or opponents will automatically check to you on flop
-- If one limper, raise if opponent is loose/weak, otherwise limp

2) ATo - "I used to think you were almost as good as AJo...now I know better."

a) EP

-- Always fold

b) MP (this hand in this position causes me problems at times)

-- If first in, limp if game is loose-passive, fold if game is loose-aggressive, raise if you have a chance to steal the blinds
-- If two or more limpers, fold unless limpers are loose/weak
-- If one limper, fold if limper is solid, limp if limper is loose/weak, raise if opponent is loose/weak and raising will often get it heads-up

c) LP

-- If first in, open-raise
-- If two or more limpers, limp. Raise if doing so will buy the button (if in CO) and/or opponents will automatically check to you on flop. Conditions have to be just right for me to raise this after multiple limpers, whereas with AJo I will do so more liberally.
-- If one limper, limp (or maybe even fold) if opponent is solid or if opponent is loose/weak but raising won't get it heads-up, raise if opponent is loose/weak and raising will get it heads-up and/or buy the button

3) KQo - "I like you. When I flop top-pair with you I'm typically not outkicked, and you are easy to get away from when the flop misses you."

a) EP

-- Limp unless the game is super tough, in which case fold

b) MP/LP

-- If first in, open-raise
-- After any number of limpers, usually limp (I typically won't raise to isolate because I might be isolating Ax, giving my hand no chance to win unimproved)
-- After one limper, raise if you can get it heads-up and your opponent is weak

-- Homer
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  #13  
Old 05-20-2003, 11:28 AM
Tyler Durden Tyler Durden is offline
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Default Re: Thoughts on problem starters...

The only time I play ATo is when I'm openraising from LMP to steal the blinds. Do you think I'm giving up a lot (or a little) by not limping with it after one or two limpers?
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  #14  
Old 05-20-2003, 11:33 AM
Homer Homer is offline
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Default Re: Thoughts on problem starters...

I don't think you're giving up much by not playing it in MP, but I think there are definitely times when it is correct to play it in LP. This is especially true if you are in a game in which your opponents are of the "any ace" variety (i.e. - Party 2/4 and 3/6).

-- Homer
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  #15  
Old 05-20-2003, 11:48 AM
Joe Tall Joe Tall is offline
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Default Rock and nottom

When I get more time I'll try to divulge more...I've got this list of options at home that I wrote down once...it's huge however.

AQo - I’ll raise with it about 1/3 of the time. I just don't feel confident with it UTG, there is way to much action behind me and too many hands that dominate it that I could run into.

The problem with these off-suit hands is that they are 'raise or fold' hands in my book. I rarely limp, and NEVER COLD-CALL with such a hand. Depending on the game type is what makes these hands toggle between raise and fold.

In addition, I'm not afraid to 3-bet with such hands if the player raising deserves to be isolated (such as my 'Was I chastised for the right reason' post) even in MP if the open-raiser is loose-aggressive.

I really couldn't sum up what I do with such hands in a short quick post since the play with them is so dynamic. My original post is more what I'd do in a tight online game.

Thus, the ever-going debate of what to do with such hands.
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  #16  
Old 05-20-2003, 12:15 PM
Joe Tall Joe Tall is offline
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Default Re: Thoughts on problem starters...

I love your comments on each hand Homer, I think the same way I have only 2 discrepancies with your play and a question:

AJo, KQo
a) EP -Limp unless the game is super tough, in which case fold

I really think limping is asking for trouble here. I'd say I raise w/ it 20% of the time, other than that I fold. This 20% would be after I've shown down a few monster hands and was sure most of the field would fold to my raise. What's the advantage of limping with this in EP?

I guess if you are in a game where 'limping is contagious' you could really stick an Axs if an Ace hits...but I think more often you'll be dominated by AK, AQ in LP or stuck to a Jxx board w/AA, KK, QQ are out there.
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  #17  
Old 05-20-2003, 02:52 PM
ComeOn ComeOn is offline
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Default Re: Rock and nottom

"AQo - I’ll raise with it about 1/3 of the time. I just don't feel confident with it UTG, there is way to much action behind me and too many hands that dominate it that I could run into."

The only hand that dominates AQ is AK, if anybody comes with other A or Q then YOU dominate them. Also, not sure what limits you're talking about, but the limits I play (up to 3/6 online) there are a good number of people willing to call with this dominated crap, and even 3-bet AJ,AT. I'm with nottom, if you can't play AQ UTG, time to find a softer game.
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  #18  
Old 05-20-2003, 02:58 PM
Dynasty Dynasty is offline
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Default Re: Thoughts on problem starters...

I've managed to struggle my way through these hands (650 times in online play, to be exact), showing a very modest profit. I just can't figure out how to play these very well.

The problem is with your expectations. These hands should only be showing a modest profit.
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  #19  
Old 05-20-2003, 03:16 PM
SittingBull SittingBull is offline
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Default UW,Rock! Just read your link n/m

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  #20  
Old 05-20-2003, 06:00 PM
SoBeDude SoBeDude is offline
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Default Re: Thoughts on problem starters...

If I'm in LP and there are a bunch of limpers to me, I'll muck AJ much of the time.

Why? its doesn't play well in a family pot. I have to catch the flop well to win the hand. Thats not easy with that hand in that spot.

I'd call with AQ, raise with ATs-AKs. (in LP regardless of number of callers)

-Scott
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