Let's Get Retarded - Commerce 3/5NL

[fimbulwinter]

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the river isn't a great card to bluff.

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i don't much agree with this at all.

fim

[mother_brain]

So what happened already?
I think the secreit lies in this...

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one other lag (who plays g00t)

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He called with Q, 10?

[MLerra]

1) I feel like you don't really want constructive criticism here but instead want some kind of reassurancet that you played it well.

2) I'm sort of baffled by reraising preflop against a LAG. Are you setting up a bluff? If so, you picked the wrong person to bluff against I'd think. I also worry about a rereraise here, since you'd be getting terrible hands cause I'm also guessing you're behind in the hand preflop. My best guess here is that you're raising to get a free and/or cheaper turn card. If that's the case, again I think you picked the wrong opponent for this play.

In general, I would call the preflop raise. That way, I'd think I would be getting good implied odds given the stack sizes and my chances of hitting a flush or straight. For $40, this becomes less the case. A stack of about 10x the preflop bet is great for when you hit top pair top kicker, but less so for extracting enough with a straight or flush to make up for the times you just hit nothing and lose your preflop money. Against a maniac, I want to see as many cards for as cheap as possible, and try to double-up with the nuts or near it. In fact, discounting fold equity, I think your turn raise possibly a -EV play. And I wonder how much fold equity you really have against a LAG.

[fimbulwinter]

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1) I feel like you don't really want constructive criticism here but instead want some kind of reassurancet that you played it well.

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not true at all. in fact i feel i played this hand poorly (you didn't happen to read the post's title, did you?) but not for the silly, inane reasons some people are citing (see your comments below)

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2) I'm sort of baffled by reraising preflop against a LAG. Are you setting up a bluff? If so, you picked the wrong person to bluff against I'd think. I also worry about a rereraise here, since you'd be getting terrible hands cause I'm also guessing you're behind in the hand preflop. My best guess here is that you're raising to get a free and/or cheaper turn card. If that's the case, again I think you picked the wrong opponent for this play.

In general, I would call the preflop raise. That way, I'd think I would be getting good implied odds given the stack sizes and my chances of hitting a flush or straight. For $40, this becomes less the case. A stack of about 10x the preflop bet is great for when you hit top pair top kicker, but less so for extracting enough with a straight or flush to make up for the times you just hit nothing and lose your preflop money. Against a maniac, I want to see as many cards for as cheap as possible, and try to double-up with the nuts or near it. In fact, discounting fold equity, I think your turn raise possibly a -EV play. And I wonder how much fold equity you really have against a LAG.

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this is nonsensical gibberish.

- obviously the turn raise is -EV without fold equity, you think i'm value betting 8 high here?
- obvioulsy i expect a call from the LAG, and yes, i do expect to be putting in money with the worst hand. the same goes for posting a live straddle, the connection is that he's much more likely to make a very costly (like getting money in drawing dead) mistake later under these circumstances than when i've perfectly outlined my hand like you suggest. against a bad lag, obviously this is the case, but this guy isn't bad, and so certain deviations from proper play need to be made from time to time.
- many more logical inconsistencies and silly things that i won't bother with.

fim

[wtfsvi]

How about he holds Ax K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? On the turn he figures you for either AK (in which case it doesn't matter much, allthough pushing you off of it would be nice, especially if you hold AA. He shouldn't be able to be able to differenciate very well between the two I think.), a set, or a draw (most likely to contain clubs). That seems like a pretty probable hand range for you. His (fairly great) river plan could contain: check call a non-club river (to minimize losses against a set and to snap of your bluff), and just maybe push a club (since he holds the K to block the nuts, and since he knows you are (much) more likely to reraise preflop with 78s then QJs). You would have a very hard time calling a river push with low clubs, and you definitly would have a hard time calling it with a set, given how his line is consistant with high clubs.

The K on the river makes no difference obviously. It's a non-club. (And it doesn't complete other draws either, except for QJ, which I suspect he doesn't think you'll reraise preflop.)

If this is the case, you got outplayed [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

EDIT: Oh well, he could put 56 for two pair into that hand range of yours as well. You will probably check behind on the river with that, so he loses a value bet if that is your hand (and he has AK). His plan is still good I think.

[gulebjorn]

I'm not going to pretend that I know how to play a pot the size of my bankroll, but...

I'd bet the flop. You cannot expect to backdoor the flush or the straight, so i'd try to take it down.
I like the turn a lot.
On the river, if you hit one of your 15 (right?) outs, you're going to make some money. If you don't, well, I'd give up on the hand. But I'm not g00t and I'm trying to cut back on the LAG, so...

Just my thoughts.

[PinkSteel]

This is like reading the chess column when you only play checkers.

I'm just going to guess at villain's thought process and motivation, and maybe thereby discover why you think you played the hand badly. Someone tell me if I'm the retard; I really want to learn something from this one.

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preflop wanted to bump the nit and play some poker with position. given that he folded like i wanted, this is forgiveable, right?

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Raised to isolate, and successfully, understand, OK.

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flop pretty drawless, i'd check here with a lot of hands. giving him a shot at a "3 or 4 outer" is ok in general IMO since im in position etc. I figured if he's got a PP he'll let it go to a turn bet too. my plan was to peel one off and let it go if he led, otherwise take my pot.

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He gave you no info, minimal risk to checking, you're in position and drawing, see what the turn brings. Works for me, OK.

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turn is golden. I can see him leading with somthing like two clubs, a set, straight draw, etc. I don't know if he leads with a weak ace or med PP here, but i know he doesn't call the raise with one. think about if you held QQ-77 and got that turn action, no way you're calling. i didn't think he'd play a set like that either (i think he'd jut push) since there are so many cards that could help me and/or kill his action. so i guess i had him on a pretty solid draw or something like twopair with AT which is really remote that he wouldn't just get it in there.

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But here's where the exchange of information is substantial. Your raise tells him at least that you're not on a thin draw. You may be bluffing, you may have a made hand, you may have a monster draw. But you're not going to raise like this with a gutshot (QJ) or a thin drawing possible second-best (KK), right? He now knows what he needs to know when the river comes. And you know when he calls here that he certainly likes his hand.

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river JQ got there, but nothing else. i don't think he checks the nuts there, but maybe if he puts me on AA or AK. Really i was worried about all the possible pair-and-draw combinatons he could hold. i said to myself when he called the turn that i was maybe in danger if a third club hit. you guys feel that way too?

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He doesn't have JQ and he knows you don't have it either, based on your turn raise. So he basically knows the river didn't help you, and since he called the turn, he's calling your river bet.

So maybe he was remotely worried about your showing him AA, but thought the likelihood was high enough that you were drawing/bluffing/lagging generally that he was willing to see if you would hang yourself. So he called your turn raise, rather than pushing, because he knew the better hand would certainly call him, and draws would likely fold. And then on the river, knowing you didn't improve to beat him, he called you down again.

So maybe you should have just checked through on the river, knowing a bet had no chance to win the pot.

Did he show you TT?

[fimbulwinter]

he mucked
him: "i miss every card in danm deck, your aces are good"
me: "if i show you a hand without a pair, you tip the dealer for me?"
him: "you show me no pair i tip the dealer fifty bucks"

and so it was.

fim

PS- lots of good arguments against the river bluff. im not entirely convinced it was a terrible bet EV wise, but probably not a profitable one long term. good thing donkeys like me get lucky from time to time.

[-Skeme-]

Did he reveal his hand?

[fimbulwinter]

nope