typical situation #852512

[joker122]

so against an unknown you call a turn raise and a river bet?

[carsonj]

have you guys never run into people who will call the flop, call the turn, then raise your river bet with their top pair?

i seem to have this happen all the time with my middle pairs that i lead out with

[Nate tha' Great]

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Reconciling everything, I think the way I play this against and unknown is to Bet the turn (call a raise), and check call the river no matter what.

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I think you usually want to bet the river too. If you bet on the turn and are just called, it becomes even more likely that you are up against some sort of middle-pair hand, which will call if you bet more often than it bets if you check.

I'm more inclined to check and call the river if the board is a little bit more draw-heavy. The K9x board does provide for gutshot draws, but those draws will usually fold on the turn, meaning you're up against some kind of made hand. I may also check and call the river against an opponent who is capable of waiting to the river to raise with a strong hand, but also might occasionally raise with a worse hand (these circumstances are fairly rare).

[ggbman]

Nate covered most of the important points, but you don't want a hand like QJ drawing for free here, and you miss value on lots of hands that will call you down. Pretty standard bet IMO.

[chio]

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Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

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that's just the thing - i'm uncomfortable calling down unless opponent is a real maniac, and i'm uncomfortable folding unless i really respect opponent's turn raises. so that just leaves me uncomfortable vs a "typical opponent" here most of the time

i agree with joker here, as opponents seem to bluff raise with worse hands here enough nowadays to render the "bet and fold to a raise vs a typical opponent line" not as effective

and i do find that if i check here, i'm inducing a bluff or bet from a worse hand enough to make up for the times that a hand with 6-7 outs checks behind. i find that most bad opponents will bet here if checked to as a total bluff, with ace high, a gutshot, or some sort of weak pair. they love to think that they're pouncing on weakness

vs a passive opponent, your line is definitely optimal for value and hand protection. there just aren't as many passive players in the 5-10, 10-20 6max, or even 20-40 shorthanded tables at party anymore

[joker122]

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vs a passive opponent, your line is definitely optimal for value and hand protection. there just aren't as many passive players in the 5-10, 10-20 6max, or even 20-40 shorthanded tables at party anymore

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this brings up a whole other issue...where did all the passive players go? i constantly find myself one of the more passive players at all my tables. a year ago, i was almost always the most aggressive besides a LAG or two. i don't care what anyone says these games have gotten significantly tougher.

[sthief09]

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Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

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I think the only reason it might be an *easy* fold against a typical opponent is because the pot is so small. throw in another cold caller preflop and now you have a nice sized pot and I don't think you can throw it away. I get shown a draw, second pair, or complete air so often there.

I happen to think at 10/20 they have a pretty good bluffing frequency so for me it's a really tough bet to make.

[sthief09]

oh and I should also mention that this is why I spend so much time datamining. I don't like being readless shorthanded.

[Nate tha' Great]

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Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

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I think the only reason it might be an *easy* fold against a typical opponent is because the pot is so small. throw in another cold caller preflop and now you have a nice sized pot and I don't think you can throw it away. I get shown a draw, second pair, or complete air so often there.

I happen to think at 10/20 they have a pretty good bluffing frequency so for me it's a really tough bet to make.

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If they're bluffing a lot, I'm still not sure that it isn't just a bet. This is *not* the same situation as when you're last to act on the turn, and facilitating a check-raise costs you 2 extra BB. It's just one extra BB to call down.

[sthief09]

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[ QUOTE ]
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Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think the only reason it might be an *easy* fold against a typical opponent is because the pot is so small. throw in another cold caller preflop and now you have a nice sized pot and I don't think you can throw it away. I get shown a draw, second pair, or complete air so often there.

I happen to think at 10/20 they have a pretty good bluffing frequency so for me it's a really tough bet to make.

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If they're bluffing a lot, I'm still not sure that it isn't just a bet. This is *not* the same situation as when you're last to act on the turn, and facilitating a check-raise costs you 2 extra BB. It's just one extra BB to call down.

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lately I've just been lurking when I get a chance, but this thread piqued my interest because I've started checking the turn there a lot out of position because I feel like, at 10/20 6m at least, they ALWAYS bet the turn when I check. then I either lead the river if I think I can avoid getting raised by a better hand or check call again (though admittedly this is where I lose value vs betting both. they'll usually bluff the river but they usually raise when I'm beat, so I do it rarely, and when I'm ahead at least 3/4 of the time the river gets checked through)