Was I too weak with this hand?

[Nukid]

Loose aggressive 3-6 hand where I'm currently running bad. (I've taken down one pot in 5 hours) I'm not sure if I played this poorly, or if I just got sucked out on, but I think it may have been a combo of the two. After the ante, I only have $47 in front of me.
3rd street

(**)2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
(**)k [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
(**)7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
(**)A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
(9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
(**)9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

Deuce brings it in for 1, K calls, 7 calls, A raises, I call, 9 calls, 2 calls, K calls, 7, believing that K has raised tries to call two bets (i.e. puts in 5 chips and says call). Ace argues that this should constitute a raise and dealer agrees, so ace reraises. I grit my teeth and call, as do everyone up til the K, who always says he likes capped pots, so caps it. All 6 of us see fourth street.

Questions (1) Was the dealer's ruling correct? (2) Was calling two bets correct with the odds that it will be capped behind me?

4th St.

(**)2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
(**)k [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
(**)7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
(**)A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
(9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
(**)9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

Ace bets, I call, Q9 raises, 26 drops, KJ calls, 79 calls, AQ reraises, called around.
Should I have raised here? It seems likely that I am facing other potentially higher flush draws, so I think I made the right decision in just calling.

Fifth Street


(**)k [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
(**)7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
(**)A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
(9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
(**)9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

QQA bets, I just call. Everyone else just calls. This is pretty passive on my behalf, but after this call, I only have $20 left (3 1/3 big bets), and I don't really want to knock people out seeing as they look to be drawing to worse hands than I have already made. Should I have raised? It's a big pot, and maybe I should be protecting it.

6th St.

(**)k [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
(**)7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
(**)A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
(9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
(**)9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

QQ99 bets out AKJT calls, 796J calls AQQK raises, I simply called. and everyone else calls. If I had raised I would only have $2 to bet on the river, so would it have been worthwhile to raise since no one has scary looking draws to beat me, and possibly drive them out.

I don't catch the 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] on the river, but it is checked to 796J who bets out, AQQK calls, I decide to raise all in for 8, QQ99 folds, AKJT calls, and 796J calls and flips over his sixes full of jacks boat. Is this just bad luck, or is it bad play on my part for not raising on fifth or sixth to drive him out?

[SittingBull]

playing differently on your part would have changed the outcome.
Raising on 4th with a possible higher flush looking at u would have been unwise.
Trying to eliminate the eventual winner on 5th would have been futile. At this point the pot was large and he had a decent shot at winning this pot.
Hence,u could not have done anything to eliminate him.
It was just not your day.
After U are finished licking your wounds,return to the table to show them whose's the "real boss". [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
Happy pokering, [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
SittingBull

[Duke]

Raising on 4th against a possible bigger flush is unwise? You have a lot of people in the hand, your hand is pretty strong given its potential... you don't have a lot of dead cards to worry about, and you're getting paid a lot on any money going into the pot.

Now, I don't play Stud (though I've been starting to play periodically to learn that game too), but this seems like a really weak-tight play to me not to raise on 4th.

Seriously, who is to say he has the flush? He could easily be on a pair.

Is it different at 3-6 than at bigger games?

Note that I'm not a stud player - yet.

~D

[Andy B]

About the dealer's ruling--first of all, dealers don't make rulings. If there is any doubt as to the correct procedure, the floor should be called. And the guy with the split Aces doesn't get a vote, either. The player's action depends on what he did first. If he said "call" before bringing his chips out, it's a call. If he put his five chips in the pot before saying "call," it's a raise.

Error number 1: starting the hand with only $47 in front of you. If you make a hand, you want to be able to get paid. If a raise on a later round will save a pot for you, you want to be able to make it.

I think calling on third street is just fine. You'd rather have better implied odds, which you don't have because you didn't start with enough money in front of you, but you have a good multi-way hand in a multi-way pot. If you hit on fourth street, you will actually have more equity than the Aces, although he probably won't realize that. If calling on third street is wrong, it ain't wrong by much.

I think the first hand I ever posted on 2+2 was a $3/6 stud hand I played just about three years ago. I started with Ace-baby-baby in Diamonds. I was one of a few limpers, an Ace raised, the fellow on my left re-raised (after having limped) and they capped it (five bet cap) with five of us in. My next card off was another baby diamond, giving me a steel wheel draw. I checked and called. No less than Ray Zee took me to task for not jamming on fourth street with my straight flush draw. I suspected that my left-hand opponent was rolled-up, and I was right. He made his full house, I made my flush, and I worried that I had wasted $12 calling him down in a $200+ pot. Ray accused me of being more worried about saving money than making it. He was right.

Anyway, if you think you're up against a set, maybe you don't jam with a straight flush draw, but when you have this many opponents and a big draw like this, the only reason not to raise is if you are afraid of driving people out. These folks just called four bets and it's a big pot already. Nobody is going anyplace. Get the money in there. Even if the other guy shows you a bigger flush draw, you still have an overlay. First of all, you have more outs than he does because you can make a straight as well. Second of all, you are gaining equity from all of the other players. You have more equity than the Aces at this point. Raise, and raise again.

On fifth street, you absolutely have to raise. The pot is very large, and you do want people to fold. They won't, and that's fine too, because you're the favorite to win the pot at this point. There is no reason not to raise at this point.

If you still have money left on sixth, again you have to raise. The aggressors can't have full houses, as everybody has each other's cards. Well, the raiser could have pocket Kings, I suppose, but it is highly likely that you still have the best hand. Get your money in there.

You may as well toss your last two bucks in on the river, but you should have gotten it in there sooner. You may not have been able to save this hand. The winner apparently took a lot of heat with pocket sixes. You certainly weren't going to knock him off of his hand once he made trips. Still, you absolutely should have been more aggressive on fourth through sixth streets. You didn't raise when you had the best hand, and when you finally did raise, you had a loser.

[patrick dicaprio]

1. calling on third is correct.
2.i think calling on fourth is a safe play (assuming you are talking about teh second time it came around to you)but probably not the best play. i wouldnt reraise if i thought someone was rolled up but if you are worried about higher flush draws you shouldnt worry next time and reraise. i would be shocked if the aces are rolled up. personally i would have raised instead of calling after the AQ bet. these draws are some of the best hands in these loose aggressive games.
3.fifth street raise again! you want to get all of your money in the pot at some point. you certainly have the best hand.

4.you did get unlucky as teh winner drew out on the river. but what would have happened if he didnt catch? you woudl have won a big pot and would have been mad that you didnt get all of your money in. think about this next time especially when you have money left over and missed a raise or two.

Pat

[Rich P.]

I agree with Andy and Patrick and with some of what the others said. I want to emphasize one thing that is of major importance that Andy pointed out.

Here's the rule: NEVER, NEVER, EVER START WITHOUT ENOUGH CHIPS TO AVOID GOING ALL IN. IMO, this is a completely unforgivable sin for a TwoPlusTwoer. If you don't have any money, pick up what's left and leave; but never go all-in. This can't be emphasized enough.

Andy explained many of the reasons. Here's a couple more: Chips are your weapons. <font color="red"> You never want to play a hand you can't push, and you never want a monster you can't bet. </font color>

The fact that you had only $47.00 left colored your whole play. You may have to deal with this type of situation in a tournament, but never allow yourself to be put in this situation in a ring game.

I understand the call on third street, because you want odds at this point. On fourth street, you are looking at a giant pot. By the time it came back to you after the AQ re-raised, you should have capped. This could accomplish three purposes: (1) it may have encouraged your opponents to check to you on Fifth allowing you to either check for a free card or bet to take control of the action; (2) it may have encouraged some of your opponents to fold (the pot is big enough now to start eliminating opponents); and (3) it will get more money into the pot when your opponents call. Many good things can happen if you raise, but by simply calling you have created a situation where you now have to show down better than your each of your four other opponents.

Finally, the idea that you should save some of your money for the river bet astonishes me. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] You are going to have less opponents around during the river to call your bet. The river is the time where they are most likely to call, especially if they have you beat. Most dramtically, <font color="red"> the river is where they are most likely to beat you.</font color>

Now that you've gotten a good whipping, never play underfunded again. Learn to raise, and raise or fold. Save those calling, "limpalong Cassidy" behaviors for the rare times where it's appropriate. [img]/forums/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img]

[Andy B]

Actually, there is a mathematical advantage to being all-in. If that $47 is all that he has left that he feels comfortable gambling with, I don't think he should necessarily go home, especially if he's a favorite in the game. If he blows it, he gets paid next week, right? Being short-stacked certainly cramps my style, but I have made some nice comebacks after being all-in, too.

[Nukid]

Thank you for the response,it was very helpful. I understand ramming and jamming on fourth if I have the best draw, but I put two other people on flush draws, and one of them is queen high. Is it still worth it to raise. I have to stick up for the person who made sixes full, two of his down cards were 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] , so he may have started out four flush and back doored into a boat. Actually, I think that is what happened and may not have made that clear in the post.

[Andy B]

I ran this hand on www.twodimes.net . I filled in some blanks, and this may not be entirely accurate, but I think it is fairly representative of what your opponents might hold. For the sake of readability, I will include only the EVs. If you want to see the expanded numbers, you can run it yourself, or you can change your opponents' hole cards:

Js Ts 9s 7s 0.305
Jd 9d 7d 6d 0.132
Qs Ac 3c Ad 0.112
Qh 9h 4h 3h 0.291
5s 2s 6c 5d 0.100
Kc Td Jh Th 0.061

Break even is .167. As you can see, you and the Queen-high flush draw have much the best of it. Your hand actually appears to be a little better than the Queen-high flush draw. You can also make a straight, which will sometimes be good. Of course, it will sometimes be a somewhat expensive second-best hand, so you probably really have somewhat lower expectation than the Queen-high flush draw. You can also make your flush and lose. What's important, though, is that you still have a large edge. It is absolutely criminal not to exploit it. The only time you shouldn't jam with a straight flush draw in a multi-way pot is if you think you will lose your action (or maybe if you're up against a couple of sets). These folks just called $12 with God-knows-what. Are they going to fold in a $70+ pot for $6 now? Even if they do fold, that isn't so terrible. The best thing that could happen is for everyone to fold. That won't happen, of course.

Notice that the Aces are taking the worst of it. Many players will jam with you when they hold the Aces, and be happy to do so.

When you catch the A[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] and the <font color="red">A</font color>[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] dies, you are in a wonderful position. Neither of your flush-seeking opponents can beat you now. Well, except by making a miracle full house. If the other guy was on a flush draw and made a full house, he was very, very lucky. That's allowed, mind you, but you made theoretical money (not enough, though), which my bank still doesn't take.

One of my all time favorite hands I ever played--I call two bets cold with (<font color="red">A[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]</font color>) <font color="red">7[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]</font color>. For this I was roundly criticized by a friend who is not quite as good a player as he seems to think he is. My next card off is the <font color="red">Q</font color>[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]. My final hand was four Queens. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Another friend had trip Aces. We missed the jackpot by one card.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

3rd: two of your secondary straight cards are dead, one of your spades is dead, and one of your pair cards is dead. You do have a pretty starting hand, but it ain't the pure nuts by a longshot, especially with some of your cards dead. Once you called the initial raise tho, you're stuck on the installment plan.

On 4th, you have nearly the best card you could have caught dealt to you. It's a flush card, and a secondary str8 card. In addition, only one of your spades is dead, and none of your eights, giving you 11 outs to a strong hand. No one else has paired a door card. You're in on 4th, regardless of the action. I don't mind your not reraising, especially given your state of mind.

on 5th, you catch the ace high flush. BUT - the nine pairs his door card. However, one of the nines is dead. Also, the other player has a pair of open queens. Notice tho that one of his queens is dead in the hand with the two nines. You absolutely MUST raise here when bet into. The pot is real big. When this is the case, getting people OUT becomes top priority. Calling was a major mistake. The number of chips you had left is irrelevant. You have an ace high flush, but other players have pairs, and other flush draws might be present, even if unlikely. Raise.

6th street is GOOD for you. You KNOW no one has three queens, because you can see them all. There are three out of four nines showing, so nines full is less likely. The rainbow four str8 is irrelevant, as it can't beat you. Once again, you failed to raise when you should have. Who cares about being low on chips on the river, you need to raise when you have the best hand, not after you give them a cheap chance to catch up, hoping they didn't.

I already said it when it comes to the river. You missed two chances to raise on 5th and 6th, and they very likely cost you a big pot.

al