How good was Johnny Moss?

[spurgeon]

How good of a hold em player was Johnny Moss? Could he have played today if he were alive? Do you think he was one of the best of all time?

[The Truth]

He was strong all around from what I understad. Used to play huge lowball games etc. Back when there were 500 dollar bills and he carried around stacks of em.

[StLouisMike]

Guess we will never quite know how good he would have been today. I would say that he is the equal to Babe Ruth in that he played so long ago that it would be hard to judge how well he would fair today. This would be an excellent question to one of the older pros who played against Johnny and against players of today. My guess is that the game hasn't changed enough for him to be any less formidable of a foe than he was 50 years ago.

Mike

[augie00]

I think you're more likely to find answers to this question in a book about Moss. Nobody that posts here was sitting in games with him.

[Ray Zee]

i played many many times with him as far back as 1970. i posted a few times what i thought about his play.

[jrobb83]

Zee's posts about Johnny Moss:
Re: How good was Johnny Moss?
Re: Most Overrated Person Of All Time
Re: Worst poker professional of all time

[Sinnister]

always responding like a moron auggie gj once again

[Shaun]

From what I have read, he fell off in his later years and was pretty much considered a sucker. But for a while there he was near the top. Whether he would be considered near the top today is another question, but it really isn't fair to compare eras. He probably did what he needed to do during his day, at least until the end of his career when it is said that he fell off a bit.

[iraise50]

I feel like my post will be unwelcome here, and like I'm sure to get flamed for having a differing opinion. That being said, my opinion is not based on my own experience. I pretty much respect Doyle's opinions on poker. I tihnk few would argue he would not have a good idea of someone's ability. So, that being said here I am quoting Doyle Brunson, from Super System I, page 44.

"I've always been an apostle of John's at No-Limit. I used to observe and watch him in each poker game I went to...The truth was, John was usually the big winner in the games...with myself a close second. As the years passed, the margin between us got closer and closer becasue I was watching and picking up his favorite plays as any young apprentice might watch and learn from the master in his field...I have much more respect for Johnny than a lot of younger palyers do. In his prime, he was the best No-limit player I've ever seen, and a lot of people don't believe that because they're too young to have Johnny play at his best. THey fail to take into account the fact that he's some 70 years old now [SSI written in 1978] and that is 20 years past the point at which most men's play begins to deteriorate."

I cheer for the fallen heroes, the people who have done something a long time ago. I think Johnny Moss wasn't able to be appreciated fully because few people alive played with him at his peak. I take Doyle's impression to heart...You think Bobby Fisher will be the best palyer in chess in 30 years? I don't think he is now, nor has he been for quite sometime, due to age...and assorted other problems.

To answer OP...pretty damned good...according to Doyle.

I'd apprecaite intelligent feedback on the issue.

[iraise50]

In reasing through Ray Zee's posts on the subject, I found this post: I cut and pasted the entire post, the link to it is in this thread, by another user.

"Ray Zee
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/28/02
Posts: 2043
Loc: montana usa Re: Most Overrated Person Of All Time [Re: Bill Murphy]
#350693 - 09/23/03 05:09 PM Edit Reply Quote



in life- jesus
in poker- stu ungar and johnny moss
in swimming -mark spitz
in golf- tom watson
in architecture- frank loyd wright"

I take serious issue with #s 1,2 and 3. I'm not a Christian, but the guy can hardly be over-rated as probably the best known living or dead person through history of all history.

Stu Unger won the WSOP Main Event three times, and 5 total bracelets. Johnny Moss won two WSOP Main Events. Ray said Johnny Moss was no good, when he was an old man, but I have already quoted Doyle Brunson, whose opinion I personally rate higher on that subject. Stu Unger might have lived his life too fast but could you beat him in NLHE? OR gin rummy?Stu won 10 major NLHE events, buy-ins of $5,000 or more and only played in 30 in his entire life. He had entered the WSOP Main Event twice, and won it twice, at age 25. Seriously, two of the most under-rated and I agree with you.

Has Ray Zee ever won a major poker tournament? I ask becasue he's author or co-author of a few books and I did a web search for him and turned up links to his books or an interview where someone named Seattle Russel accuses him (And Erik Seidel among others) of cheating. I'm NOT accusing him of being a cheater, I just was looking for biographical information on him and that was all I found to the first 30 web matches. Just trying to see if he's a bracelet winner because by picking 5 (combined) Main Event Championships as being most over-rated, until I find evidence to the contrary I am picking Ray Zee as the most over-rated poker player ever. (I'm not saying I can beat him, not saying he's a bad guy, I'm saying those two can't be it) Lots of people try to knock Raymer and Moneymaker. I totaly buy Moneymaker being a fluke, as he has enjoyed little success since. Raymer is a class act, never said he was the best and he did best the largest field in WSOP history. He's also a humble man and a faithful poster in here who I don't think would be knocked if he hadn't won.

Mark Spitz. Are you serious? This response is as incredulous as the others. He holds records for winning the most gold medals at one Olympic games (seven, in 1972 at Munich) and shares the record for most gold medals overall (nine, in 1968 and 1972). His 1972 victories were in the 100-m and 200-m freestyle, the 100-m and 200-m butterfly, and as a member of three relay teams. In 1968, at Mexico City, he won golds in two relays, a silver in the 100-m butterfly, and a bronze in the 100-m freestyle. What makes his incredible events in Munich all the more impressive is that the first time since 1936 that the Games are held in Germany a Jew who would have been cooked alive 30 years before wins in impressive fashion. Maybe Michael Phelps is the most over-rated. Who can be better than SPitz? Ian Thorpe? Popov? Ray Zee picked people who THOROUGHLY dominated thier fields, didn't just win, but they SMACKED the field in thier chosen endeavors. Didn't win, they won by country miles. They couldn't achieve that type of success if they were over-rated. All of those choices create substantial arguments for being the most ill-thought out.

Frank Lloyd Wright. I think his work sucks, but its considered genuis by many. That's one pick I thinka lot of people like but I tihnk sucks, so I agree with Zee on that one, even though he is assuredly considered to be a genuis to a lot of people.

For golf....who the hell is Tom Watkins? Watson? whatever...Don't you have to be known to be over-rated?