Break a Pat Hand in 5-card Draw?

[Tom Bayes]

Can anyone think of a hypothetical situation in high draw where it might be correct to break a pat hand?

I came close to a situation where I might have considered it in a draw tournament.

6 seated table, pot limit. I don't remember stack sizes. I'm on the button and I'm dealt a pat eight-high straight. I have the 4c and 5678 all of spades. UTG (bad player limps), UTG+1 (good tricky player) also limps, fold, I raise, SB folds, BB (terrible player) calls, SB and UTG all call.
BB and UTG both draw 3, UTG+1 draws one (he's the one I'm worried about).
Here's the way the hand played out. BB leads off by betting the min. WTF? Miracle boat? UTG calls. WTF? UTG+1 folds (good). I'm perplexed but I raise, which was a bad bet on my part. because I'm probably only called by a hand that beats me. Both fold.

Here's what could have been interesting. Suppose UTG+1, who is a good and unorthodox player, had stood pat instead of drawing 1. He's just tricky enough to limp and smooth call a made hand, or tricky enough to fire out after the draw on a bluff. Would anyone give serious consideration to tossing the 4c and drawing at the straight flush if he had rapped pat?

Any other situations where it might be right to break a pat hand?

[BluffTHIS!]

The only situation where you might consider doing so in my opinion is where you raise predraw, and that player then limp/reraises you and stands pat, indicating a pat flush, higher straight or full with small cards. And if you did break and made only another straight or flush and not the straight flush, then if he checks postdraw you should check behind in case he was full or had a higher straight or flush. If he instead were to bet in front in that situation, you should probably also fold a straight or flush since he doesn't seem worried about a 1 card draw. The only situation where he was dealt a pat full and doesn't limp reraise you is where he was dealt aces or kings full, in which case he will most likely bet into you for 1/3 or 1/2 the pot postdraw hoping to get raised.

[DOMIT]

I'd have to say it would be very player and situationally dependant... there are certain players that will limp reraise with just trips, and that I wouldn't put past rapping pat with those trips after limp-reraising, that I wouldn't break, but wait till post and see what he bets. {If he bets too little, even though it might be "I want a call" type bet, pot size might just dictate a call. If too much, I might go ahead call too, as he might be betting to get me out of the pot--of course, many times I've been burned as the player had what he was portraying .. but I made the call based on how the player would play a hand that I beat the same way.}

However, of course, there are some players that you can pretty well trust that they have what they have. Interestingly, these are the players that normally don't seem to be crafty enough to limp-reraise anyway {seems like these players can't help but raise, even if it's a min-raise}.

End result, personally, I guess I'd be hard pressed to want to break to draw to the straight flush, unless it was one of those non-tricky players where I was 99% sure that a low straight was beat.

[BluffTHIS!]

You bring up a valid point about players who might limp reraise with trips (or even aces up) and then stand pat. By not drawing to such hands they can then either make a small bluff stopping bet or check in front representing a pat hand that might not be the best to hopefully encourage a check behind and inhibit a 1 card draw from bluffing.

[M.B.E.]

I think Mason wrote an essay about this one time, there was a player who lost with a royal flush because he had split his openers without declaring it.

[Tom Bayes]

Well, all of the draw games available online that I know about (Paradish, 24h, Planet) are open w/anything, not jacks-or-better, so I wouldn't have to worry about being able to prove I had openers on the off chance I ever do have the situation where I want to break a pat hand.

[ALL1N]

I've broken aces-full a few times against somebody drawing 3 so as to improve my payoff if they improve.

[Wetdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Mason wrote an essay about this one time, there was a player who lost with a royal flush because he had split his openers without declaring it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I recall correctly, the story was in TOP. It was in a Gardena cardroom. The deck had a joker that could be used with aces, straights and flushes. The rule in the cardroom was that if openers were being broken up, the discard would have to be declared as part of the openers and be shown face up. Since the author, probably David, had not declared this and had subsequently gotten a straight flush and bet his can off, his hand was declared dead and the pot awarded to an inferior hand. The moral of the story is to know the arcane rules of where you are playing.