online 10-20 K9s

[TheLoser]

I think you can make 2 BB an hour online I am pretty close to that and I do tilt which hurts my win rate some. anyways I read alot of your posts and can tell you have a great poker mind, have you tried any of the 5 handed tables? I think you would do great in the short handed games at paradise. As for the full ring games u just gotta tighten it up alot.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

I agree. My point was that given how close the contest appeared on the turn the fact the flush card appeared on the river made a check down the right play.

BTW, I've been checkraised twice in a similar spot but I'm mostly playing 6/12 to 15/30.

~ Rick

[Joey Joe Joe]

Okay, you're probably not going to read this, and it may or may not help, but here's my take:

The online games that I've played in can tend to have players in there who like to try all the bullshit moves, and hero raises. The beauty of online is that it's much harder for somebody to recognize you, and accurately estimate your tendencies ( humans are great at recognizing faces, lousy at seeing a bullshit name on a computer screen). So, you get to take advantage of other players' bullshit moves by not doing them yourself, and getting paid off on your real hands, because people will play against you as if you are a standard online player. Your tendency in live games is to mix it up with the BS on occasion, almost surely too often. You say you don't do this much online, which is good. Guys raising crap online, with hero reraise semibluffs are a dime a dozen. Take advantage of this by not doing it yourself. You don't have to play game theory optimal. Wait for the goods. That said, I do think mike that you underestimate the variance of holdem ( poker in general). I don't really have much basis for saying this, and I could easily be wrong, but I just suspect it's the case. Poker is a wilder ride than most on 2+2 think I believe. The chances of you being down as much as you are in your fairly limited online play is probably pretty damn high due to chance alone.

[mike l.]

"Okay, you're probably not going to read this"

of course i will. thanks for responding.

"The online games that I've played in can tend to have players in there who like to try all the bullshit moves, and hero raises."

i really have not seen this to be the case at paradise. it seems like if anything everyone is playing this really bizarre ultra-weak poker involving a lot of checking and calling w/ top pair, check-calling w/ JJ on an AKxyz board agianst a preflop 3 bettor, and other even more bizarre calls and checks. the whole thing is very strange and that's all the more reason i cant stand the fact i cant seem to win online.

"The chances of you being down as much as you are in your fairly limited online play is probably pretty damn high due to chance alone."

i have a pretty clear understanding of variance in hold em. i think it's clear from my record online that im not just running bad, i simply am not beating the games there and it's some sort of leaks in my play or something.

[astroglide]

i haven't seen a non-5max 10/20 game go on paradise for months upon months, so i'm surprised to even see that. it's always 8/16 15/30 and 20/40.

for all the haters, the 15 and 20 games on paradise truly are great a majority of the time. the 3 and 8 games usually suck, but the 5 game is definitely good enough to eek out a profit if one was so inclined.

the 15 games are less wild, but if you can handle the swings/emotions, 20 is the way to go.

edit: i've observed the difference between online and regular play, and it's pretty stark when i flip between the two - i usually lose for a while before it dawns on me. as for what's different, i'm not _exactly_ sure. people take WAY more shots online, so i tend to play more passively since they'll keep firing king high at me. that's probably why you've observed the 'call down with top pair/top kicker' phenomenon more often. i'll usually raise the river with it though.

[Ulysses]

I think you played it well. I don't think this hand plays out any differently B&M. After reading your posts, I suspect two things are happening.

1) You're running somewhat bad
2) You have advantages at B&M (control of opponents, reading body language/tells, familiary w/ opponents, etc.) that can make up for not getting great cards - but you don't have any of that here.

I've never played online, but from reading posts here, it sounds like some of the better players have pretty extensive notes/player profiles. After a while, that probably takes the place of point 2 above pretty well. Perhaps that's a big reason that it's very tough for you, an occassional online player, to do well.

The hand reminded me of one I played the other day:

Jack high-flop, three diamonds. I have KJ w/ Kd. Someone bets, I raise. Others fold. He calls. Turn rag, check-bet-call. River rag, check-bet-call.

I turn over my sure winner. He surprises the hell out of me by turning over AJ w/ Ad.

It happens.

[Rob]

hi mike l. i don't post much but i've read a ton of your posts in the archives and otherwise and i hope i can give a little back here. i play exclusively online b/c the nearest casino is 7 hrs. away. you say you play only occasionally online and at paradise. both of these are no good. you have to pick a softer site than paradise, and more importantly, you have to play consistently because your advantage will be in keeping DETAILED notes and examining hand histories. you get so much info online and if you use it well it can take the place of the people-reading you do live. get yourself poker tracker and a legal pad. download the hands, write anything & everything of interest on the pad and type it in after your session. w/o doing this you're losing a lot of ev, and since the turnover rate online is so high, you have to play consistently in order to know most of the players. there's huge turnover in even 3 months.

hope this helps. rob