A9s vs PFR

DavidC · #1 05-31-2005, 07:56 AM

Villain's second hand played at the table.

---

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO (poster) raises, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero folds.

---

A couple things I'm curious about:

1) The preflop call, I think was okay, because the pot was shaping up to be about 6-way on average. Being on the button is nice, but being to the direct left of the preflop raiser doesn't really put me in position to maximize value on this hand. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

2) I folded the flop because the board is pretty dangerous, my hand was pretty weak, and I wasn't closing the action. Is that alright?

3) Supposing I'd flopped a flush draw, maybe a board of JQ7 with the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], would this be a spot where I'd like to call or raise? I don't think people are going to be folding for two cold, but if someone's slowplaying a strong hand in early position, they could make the field face three cold, and that would hurt my equity. How about if the board were J74? Would that be a spot to just call along, because people may actually be willing to fold to 2-cold on that board?

--Dave.

(Still at the part in SSHE where they discuss hand types... planning to review the PF section of that book then read the FAQ articles.)

PJM1206 · #2 05-31-2005, 08:34 AM

Dave I am not an expert and I am relatively new myself so how I would play this may not be best but I am interested in others comments and discussion as well so.... here is my view:

I fold pre-flop: If you hold 2 suited cards the odds are 11:1 you will catch 2 more of your suite on the flop. When you called the raise I think you could count on all but the SB and BB to stay in giving you 2 SB to make 8 SB or 4:1 odds. Even with the SB and BB comin in that is 6:1 odds so I would have folded. If you pair the board you are probably behind with A9 as others probably have better Ace and pairing 9 wont get you there.

because the riaser rasied with many callers I give him ceredit for a strong hand even though he is in late postion, unless his previous play suggest his raising standards are low but I would still fold here.

If the flop came with the J7 hearts I think at that point you need to check and call to the river as you would then have the pot odds to do so.

topspin · #3 05-31-2005, 08:42 AM

I'm ditching this preflop. Yes, you have the button, but postflop you will have the worst relative position since CO is the aggressor. You're also playing this pretty much for flush draw value alone, and implied odds for a flush draw aren't quite as good as for a set.

On the flop, you've got a backdoor straight and flush draw, for maybe 3 outs. The coordinated board does lower your equity somewhat, but getting 1:15 I think you have to peel. Your only worry (and this emphasizes why your relative position is so important) is that someone flopped a big hand and is trapping for a check-raise or similar, but the pot odds are so good I think you have to risk it.

tangential · #4 05-31-2005, 08:51 AM

this is my first answer in this forum. Let's see.

I would definitely call and take a look at the turn. You have an open flush draw (nuts), an open straight draw, and an overcard which total 4.5 outs.
The pot gives you 14:1. It also looks like a pretty passive table.
Call and see whether you improve.

DavidC · #5 05-31-2005, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dave I am not an expert and I am relatively new myself so how I would play this may not be best but I am interested in others comments and discussion as well so.... here is my view:

I fold pre-flop: If you hold 2 suited cards the odds are 11:1 you will catch 2 more of your suite on the flop. When you called the raise I think you could count on all but the SB and BB to stay in giving you 2 SB to make 8 SB or 4:1 odds. Even with the SB and BB comin in that is 6:1 odds so I would have folded. If you pair the board you are probably behind with A9 as others probably have better Ace and pairing 9 wont get you there.

because the riaser rasied with many callers I give him ceredit for a strong hand even though he is in late postion, unless his previous play suggest his raising standards are low but I would still fold here.

If the flop came with the J7 hearts I think at that point you need to check and call to the river as you would then have the pot odds to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

No worries, man. Welcome to the forums.

FWIW, I would raise in his spot with TT.

If you're interested in putting a little time and money into this game, check out a book: Small Stakes Holdem, by Ed Miller. You can get it right off this page:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/orderform.html

It's red, I think on the second row.

aron · #6 05-31-2005, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you have the button, but postflop you will have the worst relative position since CO is the aggressor.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if UTG raises and then there are 4 coldcallers to you on the button?
Does that make it a call?

-aron

DavidC · #7 05-31-2005, 08:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm ditching this preflop. Yes, you have the button, but postflop you will have the worst relative position since CO is the aggressor. You're also playing this pretty much for flush draw value alone, and implied odds for a flush draw aren't quite as good as for a set.

On the flop, you've got a backdoor straight and flush draw, for maybe 3 outs. The coordinated board does lower your equity somewhat, but getting 1:15 I think you have to peel. Your only worry (and this emphasizes why your relative position is so important) is that someone flopped a big hand and is trapping for a check-raise or similar, but the pot odds are so good I think you have to risk it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oy!

The math of this situation (my flop) involves:

the pot odds
the implied odds
the likelihood if it being raised
the likelihood of it being raised and re-raised
the likelihood that I'm drawing dead.

It's a complex beast.

I'm waiting to hear some more opinions on the preflop, but yeah, it's a messy hand.

DavidC · #8 05-31-2005, 08:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this is my first answer in this forum. Let's see.

I would definitely call and take a look at the turn. You have an open flush draw (nuts), an open straight draw, and an overcard which total 4.5 outs.
The pot gives you 14:1. It also looks like a pretty passive table.
Call and see whether you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

good eye re: the straight draw, I'd missed that!

vulturesrow · #9 05-31-2005, 09:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1) The preflop call, I think was okay, because the pot was shaping up to be about 6-way on average. Being on the button is nice, but being to the direct left of the preflop raiser doesn't really put me in position to maximize value on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the call. You know all the limpers are coming along, plus possibly BB. Being suited is the key feature of your hand of course. I would argue that people not making this call either a) are still playing preflop a little too mechanically or b) arent comfortable enough yet with the postflop play of a hand like this.

[ QUOTE ]
) I folded the flop because the board is pretty dangerous, my hand was pretty weak, and I wasn't closing the action. Is that alright?

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Im calling this flop and holding my breath, hoping I dont get trapped in the middle. Table texture is very important here, you probably want a pretty passive field to make this call. But I would peel one off here. The turn is going to really define your hand. I dont think the fold is terrible, but I personally wouldve been willing to peel one off.

[ QUOTE ]
) Supposing I'd flopped a flush draw, maybe a board of JQ7 with the J 7 , would this be a spot where I'd like to call or raise? I don't think people are going to be folding for two cold, but if someone's slowplaying a strong hand in early position, they could make the field face three cold, and that would hurt my equity. How about if the board were J74? Would that be a spot to just call along, because people may actually be willing to fold to 2-cold on that board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise. I dont care about bringing people along with me at that point. Pot is already big, you want to win it now. I would raise a two flush board without even thinking about it and go from there.

kyzerjose · #10 05-31-2005, 09:47 AM

I'll put myself in the group of being a tad mechanical pF and a low comfort level post-flop with this board.
Without SSHE in front of me, does it really recommend calling two cold with A9s on the button?
Is an assumption being made there will be enough folks tagging along, thereby giving sufficient pot and implied odds to warrant the call?
Wouldn't drawing to a nut flush against a semi-coordinated paired board be a -EV long term?