Set with deeper stacks .. left money on table

sourbeaver · #1 05-30-2005, 11:23 PM

I got this weird feeling that a flop raise would scream set, then I thought a turn raise would scream trips T (plus I didnt fear hearts draw by now).. wow I messed it up some.

What do you think, raise the flop ? the turn ?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG ($77.55)
Hero ($45.76)
UTG+2 ($41.35)
MP1 ($21.55)
MP2 ($29.3)
MP3 ($20.05)
CO ($13.45)
Button ($29.15)
SB ($23.15)
BB ($18.1)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 2 folds, MP2 calls $2, 2 folds, Button calls $2, 2 folds.

Flop: ($8.35) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets $8, Hero calls $8, MP2 calls $8, Button folds.

Turn: ($32.35) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets $10, Hero calls $10, MP2 calls $10.

River: ($62.35) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero pushes, other calls,UTG folds.

Final Pot: $77ish

DoubleDown · #2 05-30-2005, 11:37 PM

I would have raised the flop- 2 main reasons why.

1-It is a multi-way pot and there may easily be straight and flush draws lurking behind you. I would want to charge them to come along for the ride, if they choose to.

2-UTG has shown a lot of strength by a)raising preflop from very early position and then b)leading out for full pot with many players to act behind him. His play seems like that of an overpair and I would think he might have a tough time laying it down on this board as he may feel he is getting raised by AT, JT, flush draw/str8 draw, etc... and thus be willing to pay off my set with his overpair.

So I would raise the flop to about $22ish or so, hoping to get my stack in on the flop. If it doesn't get in on the flop- its goin in on the turn.

imported_anacardo · #3 05-30-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised the flop- 2 main reasons why.

1-It is a multi-way pot and there may easily be straight and flush draws lurking behind you. I would want to charge them to come along for the ride, if they choose to.

2-UTG has shown a lot of strength by a)raising preflop from very early position and then b)leading out for full pot with many players to act behind him. His play seems like that of an overpair and I would think he might have a tough time laying it down on this board as he may feel he is getting raised by AT, JT, flush draw/str8 draw, etc... and thus be willing to pay off my set with his overpair.

So I would raise the flop to about $22ish or so, hoping to get my stack in on the flop. If it doesn't get in on the flop- its goin in on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word.

sourbeaver · #4 05-30-2005, 11:52 PM

I like it. My not wanting to raise the flop was somewhat irrational in this situation. Maybe a bit of tilting I'll have to work on. Thanks for the great reply.

kevin017 · #5 05-31-2005, 01:32 AM

I play it the same way.

theredpill5 · #6 05-31-2005, 02:05 AM

I don't think you played it horribly. I think if you want to make a move here, you make it on the flop, not the turn. You don't want to scare anyone away on the turn. I think it may be player dependent here. Would UTG or MP be scared of a big flop raise ? I do agree that there are a lot of draws but I don't think just calling here then raising on the turn is that horrible but you filled up on the turn so a call on the turn is fine here. How about a minimum raise on the flop ?

sourbeaver · #7 05-31-2005, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about a minimum raise on the flop ?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not bad. Some players will tend to think "set" right there, others will think I just made top pair. I didn't know which one UTG was, but with the typical thinking at 25NL, he would've probably come over the top of my flop raise, or would've at least called.

I've reviewed the hand after comments and I tend to think it has to be played the way I did (and being careful if draws complete) or raise the flop. The biggest difference being the presence of the 3rd player who might be drawing (a nice flop raise might get him out of the way).

I put UTG on KK, the river ace scared him (he later said he did have KK). Had it been almost any other card on the river, I think he was calling there.

RiverFenix · #8 05-31-2005, 12:41 PM

I think your line is perfect given your position.

You have a pfraiser betting into a 2flush board with two behind him. Let him build the pot. I honestly didnt expect the person behind you to call, but that is an added bonus.

If you were scared about hearts (assuming you didnt fill up), i push the turn on a blank. Since you did fill up, just call again and hope for overcalls.

I cant see any other line maximizing your winnings like this (assuming your boat was good [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Mercman572 · #9 05-31-2005, 01:05 PM

there isn't much wrong with the flop, you could reraise here since utg very likely has an overpair, but just calling doesn't seem like a bad line either since i wouldn't expect an overcall on an $8 pot sized bet although it did happen. overcalling the turn is fine also since you filled up and the caller behind you probably hit his flush or A10 trips. only thing i really question is the 8BB preflop call from your position of UTG+1. i typically draw the line at 4 or 5BB when i'm playing a PP for set value, especially early since you aren't likely to be ahead here preflop

wtfsvi · #10 05-31-2005, 01:20 PM

You are against an overpair and you need to raise the flop because you would hate for an overcard to his pair to ruin your action, and you would hate to give correct odds if there is a flush draw behind you. (Even if there isn't, you would hate for the flush to complete and kill your action as well.)

I fake som weakness on the turn. Call any bet and check if checked to. That T might scare the overpair guy, and flush odds are no longer a consern.