NYC poker raid? - Page 18

other1 · #**171** 05-30-2005, 04:10 PM

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This is key. Supposedly one of the owners of the clubs is a very wealthy man. I think he should step up to the plate on this one and use this to try and get poker legalized. It will benefit him in the lng run as well as all of us.

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So are Donald Trump and Harrahs (50% of Borgata). I bet they would have no problem throwing some money at lobbyists in the other direction. I don't know the real #s, but I'm sure a large %age of their players come from NYC to AC.

JFB37 · #**172** 05-30-2005, 05:19 PM

It isn't worth debating further. I will just reiterate my original point, which you clearly do not get. You began by explaining, correctly, that a citizen does not have to identify himself or herself to the police, but you aren't willing to accept that. You write:

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You wasted our time by refusing to tell us who you are . . .

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Apparently, you consider people standing on their rights a waste of your time. Fine.

Back to poker.

BottlesOf · #**173** 05-30-2005, 06:56 PM

I don't see this as a lobbying issue, I think that he owners need to aruge in a court of law that the outcome of hold'em doesn't "materially depend on luck," the same way backgmamon doesn't. Then hopefully the same thing that happened in California could happen here.

How much of Harah's casino revenue comes from poker anyway?

marbleman · #**174** 05-30-2005, 07:04 PM

totaly unrelated.
but the biggest club in montreal also just got raided over the weekend.
at least AC is only a few hours away for you guys. we've got nada now, just the fear of either getting robbed or arrested.

iceman5 · #**175** 05-30-2005, 07:23 PM

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It isn't worth debating further. I will just reiterate my original point, which you clearly do not get. You began by explaining, correctly, that a citizen does not have to identify himself or herself to the police, but you aren't willing to accept that. You write:

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You wasted our time by refusing to tell us who you are . . .

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Apparently, you consider people standing on their rights a waste of your time. Fine.

Back to poker.

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Just a clarification. Its not illegal for a citizen to refuse to identify himself (so he /she cant get arrested soley for not IDing himself), but he DOES have to be identified in a situation like this. So when you say I refuse to accept that he doesnt want to ID himself, you are wrong.

I would be derelicting my duty if I didnt identify him by whatever means I need to. If he wont tell me voluntarily, then he forces me to use other means...like fingerprints.

There have been cases like this where someone was detained for some reason and then let go before being properly identified and it turned out later that he was a wanted felon (or an escapee). They found that out after he murdered someone or raped someone or whatever.

If I let that happen, you would be complaining, rightfully so, that I didnt do my job.

You cant have it both ways.

Many many people complained the the government didnt do enough to stop Bin Laden's 9/11 masacre. Now that we have all these new laws, these same people complain that it takes too long to get thru the airport.

Freedom is not free.

Nobody in this entire world has their civil liberties abused LESS than American citizens. We also have the highest crime rate in the world. Is there a connection? You better believe there is.

You cant have it both ways.

I know I said I was done with this thread, and I really am now. Good luck with your poker playing sir.

TimM · #**176** 05-30-2005, 07:38 PM

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They cant just say "oh well, we dont know who this guy is because he doesnt have ID, I hope hes not wanted for Murder"..and let you go.

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If the right not to show ID is to mean anything, this is exactly what should happen if the person is doing nothing wrong at the time.

jnalpak · #**177** 05-30-2005, 08:30 PM

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How much of Harah's casino revenue comes from poker anyway?

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I doubt its pushing their bottom line through the roof

On a sad note, I would like to take a moment of silence for the monday night "home game" that has gone dark for the first time in 2 months.

JK

iceman5 · #**178** 05-30-2005, 10:19 PM

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They cant just say "oh well, we dont know who this guy is because he doesnt have ID, I hope hes not wanted for Murder"..and let you go.

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If the right not to show ID is to mean anything, this is exactly what should happen if the person is doing nothing wrong at the time.

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Exactly correct. If you are minding your own business walking down the street, the police cant legally require you to ID yourslf. Thats not to say that some cops wouldnt demand your ID anyway, but they would be violating your rights.

But if they have probable cause to suspect you of something, they can. Being in a suspicious place such as an illegal poker room is probable cause to detain you and for them to identify you.

Wynton · #**179** 05-30-2005, 10:56 PM

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They cant just say "oh well, we dont know who this guy is because he doesnt have ID, I hope hes not wanted for Murder"..and let you go.

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If the right not to show ID is to mean anything, this is exactly what should happen if the person is doing nothing wrong at the time.

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Exactly correct. If you are minding your own business walking down the street, the police cant legally require you to ID yourslf. Thats not to say that some cops wouldnt demand your ID anyway, but they would be violating your rights.

But if they have probable cause to suspect you of something, they can. Being in a suspicious place such as an illegal poker room is probable cause to detain you and for them to identify you.

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I have to disagree with this: being in a poker club does not give rise to probably cause that you are doing something illegal, for the obvious reason that it is quite likely that you are merely playing, which is not criminal.

In NY, police conduct is governed by a kind of sliding scale: to stop and make an inquiry, the police need very little reason; to detain someone, they need a more heightened showing, or an articulable suspicion; but to arrest someone, they need actual probable cause that the person has committed a crime, and merely being on the scene is not sufficient.

Luv2DriveTT · #**180** 05-30-2005, 11:28 PM

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How much of Harah's casino revenue comes from poker anyway?

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I doubt its pushing their bottom line through the roof

On a sad note, I would like to take a moment of silence for the monday night "home game" that has gone dark for the first time in 2 months.

JK

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There is a tear in my eye. I will be in a shitty mood all day on Wednesday - no pink [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] . Satelliter... we all feel for you. Its horrible to watch your investment get sidelined like this.

JK - I might see you later this week after all. Dylan will fill you in.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]