KK & AA hand. I thought they were interesting

[Phlebas]

Hand #1 - I think I would play the same, but then berate myself for not value betting the river when they all show a pair of jacks or nines.

Hand #2 - with the benefit of hindsight there may just be a case for checking the flop and waiting to raise the turn. If you are up against a hand like QcTc then you only have about 25% or so equity so your flop betting only earns you around 1 BB. At best it's earning you around 1.5BB so that's what you are potentially losing by not betting (no one with anything is folding so you won't get any folding equity here). You aren't worried about overcards and if a club hits on the turn then you can fold if there is heavy betting ahead of you. OTOH, if the turn is a blank and one of the other players bets then you can raise which would leave the field facing two big bets (they've still got the odds to call a flush draw but they may fold if weak) or, if say BB bets and the others call then you are trapping them for another big bet plus your equity is now higher than on the flop. I think this would easily be worth more than the 1.5BB you lose by not betting the flop. I therefore think it is probably +EV to wait until the turn.

That said, I'm pretty sure I would actually play it the same as you...

[marchron]

This is probably a dumb newb question, but how can betting with K/K in Hand 1 be considered a "value bet" when any ace will call and these donks are just the sort of people who'd call bets with a dry ace and pray to spike it?

If you could conceivably get a weak ace to drop it'd be worth the attempt, but they probably won't; indeed the likelihood of being check-raised is probably greater than that.

If it were guaranteed that all of them would call then Hero only has to win one time in four to be +EV. But I can't see that happening: anyone who can't beat K/K also can't beat any ace and unless they're extreme calling stations, they'll dump it to save a bet. But anyone with an ace will take the pot and a bet Hero didn't have to lose.

If he were second or third to act I could almost see it, but he's being given the opportunity for a free showdown on a silver platter. I can't see why he shouldn't take it.

[crumpentunt]

I agree completely with marchron, i think betting the river in hand 1 is throwing money away.

[Jaran]

Because people will call w/any piece of the board

-Jaran

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, BB calls.

River: (10.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Results:
Hero has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and nines).
MP2 has 8s Tc (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.25 BB.

[marchron]

Well, that's why I'm a newb.

Wonder what the folders had.

[CourtJester]

Hand 1: Looks fine, checkign the river is fine even specially against 3 other players that coulda have waited to c/r your river bet since u were the aggressor, nh
Hand 2: I dont think ur winning 1 in ten here with 2 ppl betting the flush draw, seems like a fine fold, nh aswell