Can I please fold these queens and stop throwing away $?

[TripleH68]

If you are going to fold you must fold the turn.

Is villain taking a shot at you? A reasonable player may try this with a draw, but how often? After all, he knows he is behind to any reasonable holding for hero with a draw. And hero may well 3-bet AK or AQ.

What I take away from this hand...

1) This is why you bet AK on a ragged flop.
2) This is why reads are so important.
3) Saving bets is important.

[KSOT]

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This is more for the flop than the turn because the bets are smaller on the flop. Go check out SSH p.241. I had problems with calling down turn raises like these and it was a definitely bankroll killer.

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Well, I'm glad I'm finding out now. I was calling down to the river EVERY time. I guess I was misunderstanding SSHE. I think I do that a lot.

[Aaron W.]

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I'm so sick of calling down when I KNOW they were ace chasing. Can I fold that river or maybe even the turn raise? I'm assuming your answers will invraiably be "no."

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So you're saying you have a read because you "KNOW" they were ace chasing? Then use it.

But you need to ask yourself how you KNOW that they were ace chasing. Are they ace chasing because (1) an ace fell, (2) they raised, (3) they are passive, and (4) they seem to call bets with all sorts of weak hands? If the first two were the *ONLY* things you were using, then you probably aren't paying enough attention to the game.

[scotty34]

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I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

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There is a line in SSH regarding this that I think many take out of context. But if this guy is a solid player then I think this is an easy fold. I agree with the logic that if you call the turn bet, you have to call the river (committed yourself to a showdown). Showdown or fold in this spot might be read dependent (habitual bluffer) . But either this guy is executing a very good bluff or you are drawing to 2 outs. Any numbers/reads on the villian?

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I think this is a tougher laydown against a very good opponent. A good opponent will rarely coldcall with Ax, it is a raise or fold, and a good player also usually does not ace chase. I will ocassionally make a similar play myself in that situation without an A (usually with a pocket pair, but sometimes a complete bluff). It can only be done against another very good player though who is willing to make that laydown. I will fold immediately to a 3-bet, and check behind on the river if he calls the raise. I haven't done it enough to really find out if its +EV or not, and it probably isn't a move applicable to .50/1. I just thought I would share it, and maybe see what others think about it.

[Shillx]

Calling down is okay against a good player, but not so good against a poor player. So if I were the villian, I would never raise the turn with an ace (I would call the turn and raise the river). It would only be a bluff, hense you call it down. A bad player will raise the ace everytime.

In other words, just call this turn if you make a pair of aces. It would only be correct to do it if you are up against a tough player who knows that you will not raise a pair of aces (so you do it to throw him off).

Brad

[KSOT]

Good point.

[silkyslim]

fold on the turn.

[grjr]

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I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

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There is a line in SSH regarding this that I think many take out of context. But if this guy is a solid player then I think this is an easy fold. I agree with the logic that if you call the turn bet, you have to call the river (committed yourself to a showdown). Showdown or fold in this spot might be read dependent (habitual bluffer) . But either this guy is executing a very good bluff or you are drawing to 2 outs. Any numbers/reads on the villian?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a tougher laydown against a very good opponent. A good opponent will rarely coldcall with Ax, it is a raise or fold, and a good player also usually does not ace chase. I will ocassionally make a similar play myself in that situation without an A (usually with a pocket pair, but sometimes a complete bluff). It can only be done against another very good player though who is willing to make that laydown. I will fold immediately to a 3-bet, and check behind on the river if he calls the raise. I haven't done it enough to really find out if its +EV or not, and it probably isn't a move applicable to .50/1. I just thought I would share it, and maybe see what others think about it.

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I think if you're up against a good player you have to bet the river if he calls your bluff turn bet. A lot of players won't fold to a raise but will fold UI on the river (he may have a draw to go along with his pair also). Look at how much that advice is given out here for when you're c/r on the turn.

[Rudi]

This happened to me in a B&M cardroom 2 hours ago. I in the CO and raised with QQ. The flop came K-J-rag. A lady in EP position bets into me. My read on her was she only bets made hands. I called her down to be shown K-5 sooted. QQ was the best hand I had seen all night (extremely cold decked for 3 hours) and I didn't want to muck 'em. I should have folded the turn UI based on her earlier play. I should stop getting married to QQ, JJ, etc when the donks bet A-rag or K-rag into me.