600nl, JJ UTG vs sb

[evil_twin]

This is my first hand post, this may well be entirely uninteresting. I've been wondering about it all day though so I decided to post and get some thoughts.

Second orbit, hence no reads. SB played most pots in first orbit though, folding mostly on the flop to aggression. We're 7 handed, table seems to be breaking up.

Blinds $3-6. I'm(591) dealt JJ UTG, I open to $24. All fold to SB(650ish) who calls. BB folds.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB leads for $25. I call.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets $25 again. I minraise. SB quickly calls.

River 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB rapidly pushes $550ish. I fold.

Pretty obvious fold. What interests me is what sort of hands the SB would make this play with.

My turn minraise (clearly representing AK or better) defined my hand pretty well, hence he can push on any scary river and probably knock me off the hand. Having said that I've only just sat down and have no notes on the villain so I doubt he has any on me either. My preflop raise + turn minraise looks strong so he must put me on AK, an overpair or a set. My feeling is that he wanted a call on the river. There are donks who will call this bet on the end with AA or a set.

Villains river play is odd though, I've been wondering about it all day. Flopped two pair or set makes no sense to me, since that is NOT a river to be pushing on. Hence he has the straight (perhaps flopped it). However, in this case why bet so much on the river, he probably could have extracted some money from me if I have AK or better.

In which case, did he read the situation perfectly and outplay me? What could/should I have done differently?

-evil_twin

[evil_twin]

[ QUOTE ]
My feeling is that he wanted a call on the river. There are donks who will call this bet on the end with AA or a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rereading, I may well have answered my own question. He had it and hoped I was a donk.

[maranello11]

You need to raise this flop and see where you stand. Make it 75 to go. If he cold calls proceed with caution on the turn river. If he raises you can be done with the hand. I think this makes it much easier for you to define his hand as well. He could have 77 as well and hit the river. I dont see AA here unless this is a typical play by this player. Being an unknown I would think he would need to define his hand more against you since you have not played much against each other. Unless he is just awful, which very well may be the answer.

[piki]

Agreed. I think your hand is vulnerable to too many cards. I want to take down this pot now. If it matters, I might even call his all-in. I want to see the connectors he called preflop with or the 77 he called with.

[gomberg]

I really think you have to raise this on the flop or turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: K

SB bets $25 again. I minraise. SB quickly calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is your biggest mistake though IMO. You're not defining you hand and you're making it pretty hard for him to make a mistake here. He's going to call with a draw and reraise you with a hand that beats you. I think min-raising here is a terrible play. There's $150 in the pot if you call the $25, and this bet looks like a cheap - draw bet, so I'd raise it up to at least $125. If you get more action from that, then you can give it up or check down the river. By min-raising, you gave him 175 : 25 (7:1) odds to hit whatever he was trying to hit.

[muzungu]

evil-

These sorts of hands, while not glamorous, are very important to play well, and don't get enough attention IMO. Stuff like this is gonna be the meat and potatoes of your NL game, so to speak.

Flop- everyone so far wants you to raise, but against some opponents I prefer a call. You say this guy folds a lot to flop aggression, so against this guy I probably just raise it here and usually take it down. If this guy is tricky, I'm more likely to call. If you raise you are folding to a reraise (he is either way ahead or about 50/50 with something like 76), and if he calls later streets will get ugly.

So your hand is super vulnerable, but you'd like to keep the pot size under control. Which of those two takes precedence is somewhat player-dependent, as described above.

turn- you say your turn minraise represents AK or better- i dunno if i agree with that, but I like the idea of raising somewhat small and taking a free showdown. I think your raise is too small, tho- I'd raise a bit more to give the move more legitimacy. Maybe somewhere in the $80-$100 range. Plus, this charges his draws. Calling is an option as well, if you still want to play small ball. Depends what you think he will do on the river.

Speaking of which...

[ QUOTE ]
My turn minraise (clearly representing AK or better) defined my hand pretty well, hence he can push on any scary river and probably knock me off the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just noticed this- except for the "clearly representing..." part, this analysis is spot on.

-muz

[evil_twin]

Thanks for all your comments. These types of hands certainly get me thinking.

Most people suggest raising the flop, and of course this line has much merit. It defines my hand well and allows me to see where I stand. I play most “good” hands strongly in this spot so people should expect me to fire pot sized (re)raises out. However, what held me back in this case was pot size and the fact that my hand was so vulnerable. I don’t mind calling then folding to super aggression further on, my hand clearly cannot handle much heat.

I absolutely did not want to build a large pot, so the flop raise makes the hand very difficult to play on later streets. Of course, as many of you say, once the villain calls a flop reraise to say, 75, then I’m done with the hand so this line certainly works. I considered this at the time (and it’s probably my default for a slightly stronger hand). What really put me off making this move is the thought of then having the turn checked to me. Then what? I’m almost obliged to throw out another largish continuation bet. Checking behind on the turn just feels wrong – and doesn’t allow me a cheap showdown.

So, I’m liking muzungus line of raising the turn to buy a cheap showdown, which I did. However, my minraise in this spot was clearly the wrong raise. Whilst attempting to look strong and get a check on the river, I’ve managed to look weak and confused with such a small raise. I think the play was to raise it up to $80-100 as muz suggests to buy the free showdown.

Thanks all for your comments and advice.

-evil_twin