What do I do with this non-mess

toots · #1 05-25-2005, 07:18 PM

For the first time, I get some flavor of AA23 (this time, SS) that I don't have to fold on the flop.

My question is: How should I have played this?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: The Mutant is UTG+1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, The Mutant calls, 5 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, The Mutant raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, The Mutant bets, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (8 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, The Mutant checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB


Didn't raise PF because I was in early position and didn't want to scare anyone. The flush hitting on the river, not to mention being double counterfeited, stopped me cold.

Ribbo · #2 05-25-2005, 07:57 PM

You didn't want to raise preflop because you don't like money. If you don't raise AA23 preflop it's pretty pointless telling you how else to play, because you've got a HUGE leak in your game. Raise AA23, Raise A2, Raise A34. Start raising a lot of good profitable hands please from any position. Then you wont be worried about players folding. If i get A2 hearts and someone raises before me I always call in limit omaha/8. I couldn't care less what you have, I have a good hand. So when you get dealt AA23, raise it, and hope other players have been dealt 4 nice cards with which to call you.

gergery · #3 05-25-2005, 08:37 PM

Preflop: Obviously, you want the most money in you can get. If your playing style is such that you’re raising a bunch of hands or have fish at your table, then raise can get more in. If you’re at a table where you’ll get 2 callers if you raise but 6 if you call, or if some Taz in LP will raise for you, then call in EP.

River: On balance I prefer betting, but it seems close. I figure the chances of one of those two having 2 diamonds is something like 35%, and if you bet they’d occasionally fold a weak flush. I’d doubt they have a made straight or you’d have heard about it. For low, the 2 may have counterfeited someone else who might fold a weak low. Basically, the chances you are beat both ways is fairly low in comparison to the chance that you are winning one way or the other or can get them to fold, given size of pot.

toots · #4 05-25-2005, 08:44 PM

Thanks.

The thing that I was questioning the most was my flop raise (for similar reasons for not raising PF), but I figured it oculdn't hurt, and the two clubs spooked me.

The table was one of those typical Party tables that had a high average pot, but by the time I got a seat, it'd weakened considerably. If it was the live table that I watched before I got the seat, I wouldn't have hesitated to raise, but by the time this hand came, everyone was in fold-mode.

That and what to do on the river were my main questions.

The outcome is immaterial, so I left it out. But you're right, chances were, I wasn't beat both ways.

Buzz · #5 05-26-2005, 02:06 AM

Toots - What a nightmare! You get dealt a premium starting hand, limp from early position, hoping to induce calls from players with weak hands but then there are five folds behind you and nobody raises to give you a chance to re-raise.

Then you catch a very favorable flop, are still looking reasonably good on the turn - but finally get totally screwed on the river! Yikes!

You have my sympathy. But it happens to us all.

Well... here you still have a live three for low plus a set of aces for high at the showdown. You didn't say, but maybe you salvaged something. And at least you were not faced with calling a bet on the river from BB with Button yet to act behind you. But it doesn't look good.

But how best to play the hand? Except that I think you should have bet the river after BB checked, I think you played fine.

Ironically, the way the board has turned out, in retrospect maybe those folds on the first betting round were not so bad. Maybe someone folded a hand that would have made the diamond flush or the nut low. But your only chance to take turn the situation to your advantage is to bet the river. By betting the river you might induce an opponent with a straight or non-nut low (or both) to fold. It's worth risking a bet to win the day.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

toots · #6 05-26-2005, 10:30 AM

To be clear, it wasn't a bad beat post. I thought about excluding the river betting round entirely, although in the end, it was good that I posted it 'cause I've had good suggestions.

Yes, I salvaged something, and probably because of the pre-flop folding.

Mostly, I'm just looking for a good way to play the hand.

Basically, if I get dealt 559J, it's pretty clear how to play that (fold). I'm interested in what to do when I get some of the better hands and the flop doesn't go 100% my way.

Thanks.

grandgnu · #7 05-26-2005, 11:53 AM

Alright, the way I look at it, this is the lowest level on Party, I don't expect players to be very good, and I DO expect them to chase lows with 4/5 SOOTED. Here's how I'd play it out:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: The Mutant is UTG+1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, The Mutant calls, 5 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

I LIKE THIS LINE OF PLAY. I WANT TO INDUCE MORE PLAYERS INTO THE POT WITH THIS HAND, AND BUILD A NICE BIG POT THAT I HAVE A SHOT AT SCOOPING, AND SHOULD BE A LOCK FOR ANY LOW.

IF I WAS IN LATE POSITION WITH A LOT OF LIMPERS, THEN I WOULD PUT IN A RAISE. BUT IN EP I DON'T WANT TO DRIVE OUT POTENTIAL PROFIT. IN ADDITION, IF MY HAND WAS A/A/K/2 SINGLE OR DOUBLE-SUITED, THEN I WOULD PUT IN THE RAISE FROM EP, HOPING TO DRIVE OUT PLAYERS.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, The Mutant raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

I WOULD NOT RAISE HERE, BUT SMOOTH CALL. AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO DRIVE OUT POTENTIAL PROFIT. YES, THERE'S ALWAYS THE THREAT OF BEING QUARTERED, BUT AT THIS POINT YOUR HAND IS VERY STRONG, AND I'D WANT TO BUILD A POT FROM LOTS OF LOOSE DONATORS/CHASERS, RATHER THAN GET HEADS-UP HERE.

IF I'M GOING TO BE SPLITTING THIS POT, I WANT AS MANY OTHER PEOPLE IN AS POSSIBLE, RATHER THAN HEADS-UP SPLITTING THE POT.

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, The Mutant bets, Button calls, BB calls.

HERE I WOULD BE BETTING OR RAISING, AS I WANT TO BUILD THE POT AS MUCH AS I CAN, AND MOST OF THESE GUYS WILL LIKELY STICK AROUND FOR THE RIVER.

River: (8 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, The Mutant checks, Button checks.

OUCH, THAT'S A SUCKY RIVER CARD, CHECKING IS THE RIGHT MOVE HERE.

Final Pot: 8 BB

GooperMC · #8 05-26-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I WOULD NOT RAISE HERE, BUT SMOOTH CALL. AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO DRIVE OUT POTENTIAL PROFIT

[/ QUOTE ]
But you hand is still not that strong. I would raise to make other 23's and flush draws pay to play. At low limits most likely they are going to call anyways so why not give them as bad odds as possible. I almost always raise with sets to try and punish flush draws.

[ QUOTE ]
OUCH, THAT'S A SUCKY RIVER CARD

[/ QUOTE ]
The only worse river card would have been the 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Fugly.

[ QUOTE ]
CHECKING IS THE RIGHT MOVE HERE.

[/ QUOTE ]
With 3 people in this pot you really want to knock one out. 3 way is it going to be very unlikely that you scoop and moderately likely that you will take 1/2 the pot. HU it more likely that you will scoop and very likely that you will take 1/2. Yes that river card mucked up your hand, but look at that board, it probably mucked up everyone else’s hands too! If you bet you may get baby diamond flushes, str8, and better lows then you to fold. It is going to be 1BB to possibly secure ½ this pot so I say bet and pray.