Caught in the BB

prrthd · #1 05-26-2005, 12:08 PM

This hand didn't feel right to me so I figured I would try and get some comments on it. I don't feel like it is a super interesting hand but I had questions on the pre-flop call and then what to do on the turn. I called pre-flop since we had 2 cold callers and it would be an easy lay down if I didn't catch the flop. On the flop I got my flush draw as well as top pair with no kicker and a backdoor straight draw. I raised to pump the pot for my flush draw, but I'm not sure if I should have capped it. The turn is a blank and I am faced with 2 BB to me, since I have the odds to call I'm guessing the correct line is to call and then check fold the river unimproved.

MP2 was loose agg. and MP3 was very loose and agg.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, Button folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero ?????

shark6 · #2 05-26-2005, 12:40 PM

PF: Call is OK unless you have reads that most of the other players already in a TAG’s. You’re getting pretty good odds to try for a flush or straight.

Flop: Good. That is a good flop. top pair + flush draw + backdoor straight draw, you have 14 outs to improve even more. The question here is do you want a lot of callers or not. You could bet and have MP2 raise and knock out the other players, or check and checkraise to build a huge pot. Given that you have such a strong draw and there are 3 other players, I’d opt to build a huge pot and risk getting my top pair outdrawn. Plus, you may be behind anyway. MP3’s reraise was unusual, but it could be a TAG pumping a flush draw, since he didn’t want you to call 2 cold on the flop and fold or a made set or 2-pair. Given the risk he already has a set or 2-pair, I wouldn’t cap the flop.

Turn: At that point, I think you need the flush to hit to win. Since the PF raiser didn’t cap the flop, I wouldn’t worry about a 3-bet too much. So you’ll be getting 6.-1 to call if MP2 just calls after you. You’re 4-1 to make a flush, so I’d call the 2 cold and hope MP2 doesn’t reraise and MP3 doesn’t make a full house when you flush out if he does have the set.

River: Checkraise a made flush. Fold UI.

jackdaniels · #3 05-26-2005, 12:45 PM

Pre-flop call - fine
flop check/raise - not so good. It is important to take control of the betting when you have position (and I would raise with much less than top pair and a flush draw to do it). When OOP you must play a bit more "docile" - especially since you know the 2 up against you are so aggro (let them build the pot). If you do decide to go for the c/r, you must cap and bet out the turn. If it comes back to you a 3 bet, I think you are in trouble and your outs are not good (against a better pair AND against a better flush draw).
Ideally, you would check/call flop, Check/call turn - bet out river (Wa/Wb strategy).

shark6 · #4 05-26-2005, 12:49 PM

I think hero needs to build the pot on the flop because he may already be ahead (assuming the other 2 have overcards or PP < TT), and even if he isn’t he’s likely to improve by the river and win a big pot.

prrthd · #5 05-26-2005, 12:59 PM

I'm not sure I like the check/call, check/call line, seems pretty weak to me.

belloc · #6 05-26-2005, 01:06 PM

I fold this preflop pretty easily. You have ten high, and need to hit the flop hard to beat even a marginal stealing hand.

Okay, so you hit the flop hard. The c/r is correct holding top pair and a flush draw against a PFR.

The turn analysis has already been done well. A call is right if you think it won't be 3-bet behind you.

If the flush hits on the river, I bet out into the aggressor instead of going for the c/r.

chief444 · #7 05-26-2005, 01:16 PM

I think the preflop call is fine. Just bear in mind though that with these two opponents this type of flop & turn action won't be that unusual so you need to adjust accordingly.

The flop check/raise is very good, IMO. I would probably go ahead and cap considering the description of the two opponents. You're not going to get a better flop very often and a "very loose and agg" opponent smooth calling/3-betting doesn't mean you don't hold the best hand + best draw a lot of the time.

The turn I just call though. I hope you weren't considering folding there. I don't like a 3-bet at that point.

belloc · #8 05-26-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the preflop call is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I want my suited cards to at least have the possibility of making a straight to call PF here, and if not, I want K or Q high. Don't you pretty much have to flop a flush draw or two pair (which would still be pretty vulnerable) to win with this hand? Are you thinking that the implied odds for your flush are going to come from the aggressiveness of the stealer? Because it's not coming from the number of opponents.

chief444 · #9 05-26-2005, 01:45 PM

My general feelings on this are:

1) My personal results thus far playing very loosely from the blinds have been very good, though over a small sample.

2) I see a lot of stats posts regarding blind play and comments on what is best but I rarely see good arguments to back anything up. People do mention Peter Rus's data showing that any two suited 3-handed or more show profit. But honestly I've never even read the specifics of that post. Nate made a post a bit ago with some simulations on stealing indicating many hands showed profit from that perspective. However I've never really seen any convincing data/arguments indicating I should (or should not) tighten up my blind play.

Basically, I play loose in the BB. But I honestly don't know if that's optimal. And at this point all I really have looked at are my own stats which, as I said, aren't really conclusive but so far so good.

Also, I don't think this is something that you can effectively just combine data on or look at someone elses data. Playing marginal hands out of position against aggressive opponents as in this hand is not exactly the easiest thing to do well. So what's profitable for some better players may not be profitable for me. But obviously it would be nice to at least know what SHOULD show profit. But I really don't know that yet. I THINK T5s should show profit if played well. But I don't know.

belloc · #10 05-26-2005, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't think this is something that you can effectively just combine data on or look at someone elses data. Playing marginal hands out of position against aggressive opponents as in this hand is not exactly the easiest thing to do well. So what's profitable for some better players may not be profitable for me. But obviously it would be nice to at least know what SHOULD show profit. But I really don't know that yet. I THINK T5s should show profit if played well. But I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right. The weakest part of my game (on exhibit at a 1/2-short table near you) is OOP against aggressive players.

I hate to beat preflop decsions into the ground, but I think this one is worth discussing. I'm folding this every day and twice on Sunday. For blind defense I'd much rather have two big cards (or even just one) than suited four-gappers. Maybe when I improve my HUSH play, I'll add T5s to my defense arsenal.

Obviously this flop worked out well for the OP, and I'd be very happy to play the hand from this point on. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]