Did I play this one right - Queens early

[NYCNative]

Okay I can dig that. Make it look like I am slow-playing it, coming in for a big raise if villain bets. But the underbet is the same amount as a continuation bet though isn't it - about 1/2-3/3 of the pot?

I guess the problem is that I don't often check this when I have the Ace. Once in a while against a really aggressive stealing type I will, but usually I am betting out when I make my hand on the flop. I've been burned by slow-playing too much. Remind me to tell you the time I checked with a flop of AKQ with big slick and the 10 that came next gave villain a set of tens (and the river gave him quads).

I realize that is somewhat results-oriented, but I have numerous slow-playing-leads-to-being-outdrawn moments.

Also if I am always betting into a pot I raised after the flop it is hard to tell if I hit or missed... A smaller concern since SNGs don't attract the same people, but still important for when I'm in hand #120 of the game and in other games I play in.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just did.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. And I suspected that was where I misplayed this (which prompted my post) and I admitted up there that it was wrong.

See, I had no intention of betting again unless a Queen popped up. Then I saw a spade and my head said, "You can STILL push him off this one and you have extra outs." However, my head also said, "Hey! Don't do it! You're behind in the hand!"

A case can be made there for putting in a bigger semi-bluff bet (semi now that I picked up the flush draw) thtat is more likely to work (because villain could fold thinking I made my flush) or checking and then deciding if I would fold or call if I didn't get a free card based on the bet size.

My brain snapped, unsure of which course to take, so I went and hit the compromise, which while useful in politics and cdeciding on where you want to go to dinner with your significant other is not very smart in poker. I did something in the middle, made a weak stab. Blah. There was my mistake. And by posting it I learned from it.[ QUOTE ]
I just call there with a made hand, a draw, and the occasional 'bluff the turn' hand 100% of the time. Good luck putting me on a hand and good luck betting into me again on the turn (if a picked up flush draw with QQ is in your range, you are in deep trouble).

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I'm trying to put ME in your shoes not villain. We all know you're smarter than villain (though it would be interesting to hear how you'd play this hand if you were... I suspect you would have folded pre-flop.)

The fact is that in the future I probably check the turn and see what happens. If you're villain you probably make a big enough bet that I fold. If you're villain you go over the top with my pussy bet, probably, and I fold there, but next time I won't make the pussy bet.[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying you shouldn't ever continuation bet. HU, you *usually* should. But it should not be automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I know that. Sometimes people scared of being check-raised will give a free card too so I will check sometimes. More often than not HU I will take a stab however especially when there's only one scare card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what a semi-bluff is? It is when you are betting to get a better hand to fold. On this board, your bet is only going to get a hand that is drawing dead to fold. You will never ever get a better hand to fold. Basically your turn bet is spewing chips, it could have cost you the pot too if your opponent would have raised. Good work.

[Matt Walker]

[ QUOTE ]
Continuation betting against adanthar on an Axx board:
-If I give you action on it, I have you beat, most likely with a set or maybe an AK I missed a limp/reraise with against a maniac or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar, if you limp then call a raise from the BB preflop, arent you most likely holding a mid-high pocket pair or a good ace. Because more than 1/2 of these handsmissed on this board wouldn't a continuation bet show immediate profit? Is your bluff call percentage that high? I'd be a lot more concerned about betting into the any ace guy here.

[NYCNative]

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Do you know what a semi-bluff is? It is when you are betting to get a better hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]Not exactly. A semi-bluff is:[ QUOTE ]
To make a bet in hopes that no one calls it. But, should other players call the hand, the hand can still improve to be the best hand at the table.

Poker Glossary

[/ QUOTE ]So it seems to me that this is precisely a semi-bluff. I can improve to the flush, yet I also want him to fold. How do you think that a turn bet is not a semi-bluff?[ QUOTE ]
On this board, your bet is only going to get a hand that is drawing dead to fold. You will never ever get a better hand to fold. Basically your turn bet is spewing chips, it could have cost you the pot too if your opponent would have raised. Good work.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, thanks for poiting out again what I realized before, that I played this hand badly on the turn. However, I still maintain that a legitimate semi-bluff at the turn can get someone to fold their Ace or maybe even a set because I can represent making the flush. Not with the pussy bet I made, mind you.

That doesn't mean I should always do this. Most of the time - as I admitted above - I should check-fold or check-call. But I don't think taking a legitimate stab at the pot with the three spades up there is a bad thing as a rule. Not what you'd do 100% of the time or even 40% of the time, but not an abomination.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar, if you limp then call a raise from the BB preflop, arent you most likely holding a mid-high pocket pair or a good ace.

[/ QUOTE ]That's a good point. What do people limp-raise with? It's not usually strong aces, is it? I don't limp with AK and rarely with AQ. I imagine most people limp-call with small to medium PPs. Another reason I think a continuation bet is not inappropriate.

[Nick B.]

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How do you think that a turn bet is not a semi-bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

BECAUSE HE WILL NEVER FOLD A BETTER HAND.

[NYCNative]

The fact that he's possibly/probably a donk who will never fold doesn't remove the fact that it's a semi-bluff, just that it's destined to fail [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You have to recall though that I had no reads as it was early in a SNG so I had no idea what he'd do or not do.

Against a good player do you feel that a legitimate bet on that flop is a good move though? Yes or no?

[adanthar]

A continuation bet doesn't show immediate profit against me because most of the hands that would fold don't bet themselves. If I have 88 and you check, I generally won't bet (there are exceptions but not if I don't have a read.) Therefore, your bet folds my two outers but checking doesn't cost you the pot.

Also, giving a free card on an AKQ board is a lot dumber than giving one on an A72 board and it's very disturbing that you can't see the difference right away.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
A continuation bet doesn't show immediate profit against me because most of the hands that would fold don't bet themselves. If I have 88 and you check, I generally won't bet (there are exceptions but not if I don't have a read.) Therefore, your bet folds my two outers but checking doesn't cost you the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Three observations:

1) You never take stabs when you sense weakness? That seems like lost opportunities. One cannot live on such things but the nice thing about stabbing at a pot against someone you don't know is they don't know you either.

Mind you I can see taking the free cards if you have a draw but a two-outer is not much of one.

2) I want you to fold your two-outer because a) you might be ahead of me right now (your 8s against my slick with a flop of QJ7) and I don't want you to know it and b) I don't want you to hit that two-outer unless you are willing to pay for it. Either way a bet does what is designed, makes you define your hand in some way.

Immediate profitability is nice and all but the best way to profit as a rule is to get information and a continuation bet will provide that.

3) Not everyone plays like you.[ QUOTE ]
Also, giving a free card on an AKQ board is a lot dumber than giving one on an A72 board and it's very disturbing that you can't see the difference right away.

[/ QUOTE ]You didn't direct that to me but I can see the difference on a free card on a coordinated board verses an uncoordinated one. But I still don't think that a bet on the uncoordinated board is necessarily bad as a result.

[Matt Walker]

Thanks for clearing that up, makes sense now. Don't know why I didn't see it before.