Advice on this hand

[lstream]

On the surface, this may look like a standard hand, but I was completely fooled by the ending. Any thoughts on the play here:

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.5, Bring-In $2 (hand converter)

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street

Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises

6th Street

Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River

Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

[bigredlemon]

He completed with trip jacks?

He's playing his hand very weakly until you make open queens, in which he then starts giving you action. Definetly looks like a case of slow playing. Since you bet on the Q and 3bet on the second Q, he might be afraid that you've made trip Qs and called you down after. Another possible interpretation is that he had hidden twos that made trips. Otherwise, I can't see what else he could have that makes sense.

[RandomUser]

Maybe pocket Ks and hit trips on 6th street?

I don't mind the aggressive play, even though you are probably betting 2nd best hand. There is no way he is going to raise you unless he makes Ks full on the river, so you might as well go ahead and bet it.

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe pocket Ks and hit trips on 6th street?

I don't mind the aggressive play, even though you are probably betting 2nd best hand. There is no way he is going to raise you unless he makes Ks full on the river, so you might as well go ahead and bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have trouble seeing villain raising with just kings on 5th afting seeing Hero bet the first Q and now the second. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe (KJ)J but definetly not (KK)J. (3h 4h)Jh is another possibility that could makes sense.


edit: here's what I have is the likely hands:
1. (J J)J
2. ([img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
...
3. (2 2)J
4. (K J)J
5. (K K)J

[Michael Emery]

3rd: Right

4th: Check-raise the completer with your four flush and overcard kicker

5th: Reraising is wrong. It should appear to you that you likely ran into a set here. Either that or pocket aces/kings. Simply call. The fact that it could very well be a set (obviously greatly diminishing the value of your hand) makes calling the right option.

6th: Might as well bet. But still realize you're likely behind. If he has aces or kings underneath he'll take a free card. If he does have a set hes not likely to raise as he will fear you already have your boat.

7th: The river bet was very bad Stream. You've posted a couple hands in the past like this where you bet with just what you have on board. Thats fine if its a bluff that cant win in the showdown. Here you have showdown value and there is no way your opponent is mucking a hand that beats you. Simply check and call (expect to be no good) on this one. I really recommend you read the "Theory of pokers" river play section Stream. It would do a lot of good. From hands that you've posted you seem to be a soild early street player, but your river play needs some work. Just keep at it, and best of luck.

Mike Emery

[lstream]

Strangely enough I have read the section in TOP that you are referring to. I also recall the exact hand example - quads. In spite of this, once in a while I fall of the wagon and bet on seventh like this, usually when I think villain is not sensible. I agree that this was a dumb bet - point taken.

Regarding the check raise on fourth - what about the possibility that it get checked around, and I end up missing a bet? I see this fairly often on fourth at these tables.

I am a little guilty of a deliberately misleading post when I mentioned I was suprised at the outcome. I was suprised but, not likely for the reason everyone suspected.

Villain had a pair of jacks - go figure.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding the check raise on fourth - what about the possibility that it get checked around, and I end up missing a bet? I see this fairly often on fourth at these tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

He raised on 3rd and caught a card suited with his door. I can’t really see him checking.


[ QUOTE ]

Villain had a pair of jacks - go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]


In that case, nice value bet on the river [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[MRBAA]

If you think the villain is a very bad, over aggressive player you should say this in your post. I'd play this hand just like you did against many 1-2 and 3-6 opponents. Against others, I'd be check calling after getting raised on fifth.

[lstream]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think the villain is a very bad, over aggressive player you should say this in your post.

[/ QUOTE ]
I had never played this person before - the screen name was entirely new to me so I had no real history to go on. I thought the guy was a new player, at least at the 5/10 tables.

You raise an interesting point though - when he made the raise on fifth my immediate reaction was that it was a knee jerk dumb response to my bet. I felt this way because of his passive response to my bet on fourth - figured he was afraid of the queen. So if he was afraid of one queen, then why is he raising if he sees two of them?

How many players are going to complete with a pair of twos? For this reason, I never put him on trip 2's. If he had aces or kings, then why no raise on fourth? I still thought that the most likely hand was split jacks, combined with a misguided sense of aggression. I have also noticed many times that brand new players err on the side of over aggression. On top of that, I liked the four flush so much that I decided to raise.

I am not sure if this admittedly fuzzy reasoning has a place at the poker tables, but that's the main reason for the raise. Against known commodities I would have very likely called, especially if they had a history of decent tricky play that would explain the behaviour until fifth.

[MRBAA]

Your read is really interesting. My read in this situation (using similar hand readinglogic to yours) is "wow, I thought this guy was way behind but he just made a really powerful play raising a big bet street into my open big pair when I've led the betting here and on fourth".

With a pair of jacks, his play is just...awful, and your analysis of the motives behind it is definitely interesting.

Here's another thought: your reaction was due in part to the fact you've been running good. I find when I'm running good, I'm more apt to make aggressive reads, when I'm running bad I'll be more passive.

Thinking it over neutrally, I think the three bet on fifth is a bit over-aggressive against an unknown.