Where is the Outrage?

[Dr Wogga]

....for starters, those groups or individuals who are so determined to make their point or push their agenda in my face, that they end up taking away MY rights. Inconveniences ME. e.g. a greenpeace demonstration where the activist loonies hang from bridges during rush hour. I'm on my way home from work and need to pick up my kid. This costs me money (gas, extended childcare) as well as time; adds pollution he air THEY claim to be so worried about [of course pollution is irrelevent here - understand, that's not this week's protest]; causes tax payers money to be spent on police and emergency service O.T. To be fair, this is no different than the right-wing loonies who hole up on some isolated farm in Idaho and shoot it out with the "government" - causing some of the same problems I have with the greenpeace nut-nicks. I also beleive protesting against the war, while it is going on, is radical left. I believe these demonstrations, most led by the hollywood elitists, give aid and comfort to the enemy and attempt (if not succeed in some instances) to demoralize our troops. I would also include in this bunch, those idiots who publicly wish for their own troops to be killed and maimed, which would give credence to their anti-war stance. OTOH, I do find some liberals (even a few in the media no less) that fully support our troops once a decision has been made to go to war. They argue their beliefs up until that time, and then re-commence once our troops are safely home. This is more than spirit of dissent that I believe that helps keeps the USA the greatest country in the world.

[andyfox]

I'm a lefty and I'm not scared at all by Bush. He's an incompetent lightweight. No, the real scary people are the hardliners who are pushing more wars. Both Newt Gingrich and Tom Delay recently gave speeches excoriated the State Dept. The president's spokesman had to denounce those speeches.

The situation is very reminiscent of the McCarthyism of the 1950s. (Note that the good doctor calls those who disagree with him communists.) The state department then too was blamed for being too soft, for "losing" China. It was purged of many people who were knowledgable about Southeast Asia and the result was the disaster of Vietnam.

The biggest problem may be that the opposition is also incompetent. With the exception of the politically defrocked Gary Hart, there's little intelligent or cogent analysis or prescription by any Democract of any stature.

By the way, do you have any evidence that Mr. Jennings is a member of the Communist Party? Or that I am?

[Clarkmeister]

Well, you do bear a passing resemblence to Teddy KGB. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[MMMMMM]

"First of all there is no right and wrong."

There is right and wrong: mathematically and scientifically speaking it exists beyond a doubt, and yes, even morally speaking it exists in some instances. For instance I don't think it could be argued that needless and deliberate acts of great cruelty are not "wrong" or "bad."

"War is bad. I think everyone will agree with that."

War includes bad things, but if in certain cases it saves lives on balance and prevents continuing cruelties, then it may be good overall in these cases. For instance resisting Nazi aggression in WWII was a good thing overall even though it involved many bad things.

"A lot of people die and that is never a good thing."

What if it sometimes saves more people from dying than it kills, and reduces the overall cruelty index? (A good example of this is the recent war in Iraq--if we extrapolate Saddam's murder of his own citizens over the next two decades--or even a much lesser period of time-- this should be obvious, and it should be obvious that getting rid of mass torture facilities and child jails is a good thing too).

[gilly]

Please re-read my post. I do not mind people not agreeing with me but atleast try and understand what I am saying.

I did not make a blanket statement that there is no right and wrong in any situation. There are plenty of things that are right and wrong. I was just pointing to this example as one where there is no clear cut answer.

Also, you really did not read what I said about war and killing. These things are always bad. No one wants war. IN WWII stoping Nazi aggression was a "good" thing. However, it would have been much better if that war was never fought (ie no Hitler). Read where I said you must weigh the costs Vs. the benefits. My point was that sometimes you must do something that is bad (ie war) to achieve a greater good.

[MMMMMM]

OK, I went back and reread your post.

The way you began a paragraph with the sentence "First of all there is no right and wrong.", led me to believe you were making a blanket statement, especially since there was no clear modification of this statement.

I also do see where you mentioned weighing costs vs. benefits when it comes to war.

I guess what threw me for a loop was that the paragraph referenced above had several very definite-sounding, unmodified statements in it--which I took to be your positions. Apparently I took these words more literally than you may have meant them, and as stand-alone statements: I also may not have sufficiently considered any modifying implications of other sentences or paragraphs you wrote.

I suspect that many others might also have thought you were making a general statement with the quote above--if you go back and look it over from the perspective of someone who does not already know how you meant it, you might see where others could possibly become a bit confused or misled as to your meaning. I think that somehow at least that first sentence of the paragraph does have a bit of a "stand-out" or "stand-alone" quality to it, even if you meant it entirely within a context. However I take some blame for my response to your "war is bad" statement as you rather clearly meant that in a larger context.

[andyfox]

Yeah, well I don't think that Ace kkkkkhhhelped you. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[ACPlayer]

Forget it bud. Nobody is at home and they certainly are not listening. You will not get thru.